is Regular oil safe for '03 BMW?

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Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
AJ, the proof is really on you in this case. You're asking for someone to disregard the manufacturer recommendations and use their own car as a guinea pig to verify if your unproven assumptions will work or not. Who has more knowledge of these engines and their lubrication needs: you, a casual oil changer, or the manufacturer who built this engine?

Is it possible that mineral oil at short OCIs will work? It's possible. Am I going to sacrifice my car to find out? Not a chance in [censored]. I've got enough problems to worry about as it is without throwing another unknown into the mix.


That's just it. His faith in conventional oil is so strong that not only will he not use it himself, he expects someone else to risk their car to prove his theory.

The phrase put your money where your mouth is comes to mind.

Tell ya what AJ. send me the money to buy a new engine. http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=BT53&mospid=47799&btnr=11_2226&hg=11&fg=05 Plus the money to pay for the labor. And I'll be your test dummy.

Since you claim that you know more than the people who actually own the cars, or those who actually design the engine and who know what it needs, you should have no problem doing this.

Do you have the courage of your convictions? The backbone? The cajones? Of course not.

About what I expect from someone who confuses that Castrol oil with Rotella.

Now as far as I can tell. The only thing I've got wrong was the Valvoline. Not really my fault, as there is a Valvoline that does work. BMWUSA should do a better job, but that's why I would defer to the knowledge of BMW owners.

Now, here is where we seperate the men from the boys. I state to the OP that using Mobil 1 0w-40 is the right oil. It meets all the specs, and, this is where that seperation comes in, "I" use it in the Zed. I'm not calling for volunteers. I have the cajones, spine, courage of my convictions to do it.

BTW, try looking for the BMW used oil analysis that are not posted here but in that section called Used Oil Analysis - Gasoline. That would be the proper place, would it not?

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/1448812/

How about a Porsche? Look for this one "Mobil 1 0w40, 7400mi, Porsche 911 C4s 3.6L ."

What was that line? Oh yeah, I'm embarrased for you.
 
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Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Really, compared to FULL-LENGTH BMW changes, shorter 15w40 HD changes seems ~worse~ to you?

If it's an inferior oil, yes, it seems worse. If you do something bad, but only for a short time, does it make it OK?

Personally, I just don't see any benefit to running mineral oil at half the OCI. In my case it'd be the difference between LL01 ran at 8K miles (once a year) vs. mineral oil ran at 4K miles (twice a year) OCI. According to my calculations, I am not saving any money by going with mineral. I am just wasting more time.
 
Trajan: Using oem spec oil shure is "courageous".

Pete: 2 changes of SM oil would be $30 and could easily run to 15k. That same $30 only would net a half-filled crankcase of BMW oil.

You're more comfortabe with BMW oil at 12k, 15k? That's saying that half-used BMW oil at 7500 miles is still better than new HD oil, which I find, umm....questionable. They both have the same starting TBN, fyi.

At least you and I know what that means.

G0D forbid we run mere conventional oil in our BMWs.
 
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
You're more comfortabe with BMW oil at 12k, 15k?

Personally, I'm not. That's why I wrote, I'd run synthetic for 8K, mineral - 4K.

Sure, they may both have the same starting TBN, but is TBN all there is to the mfg spec? Besides, different oils have different rates of TBN depletion.

Quote:
That's saying that half-used BMW oil at 7500 miles is still better than new HD oil,

Well, I'd rather have brand new BMW oil every 7500 miles. :)

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this subject.
 
thanks trajan..

I am looking into DIY oil changes.. I got a few video references online how to do oil changes and theres books at the library for car maintenence.

oil extractor will be good time saving tool
 
in a day Im driving like less than 20 miles, luckily everything is very local where I live...I cant even think of a time since I got the car that I drove more than 30 minutes except one or two times... so that will give u an idea how i drive around
 
5w20 conventional at 6,000 miles combined with some spirited driving will be going through that engine like s**t through a goose. If you run like this for long you may find it will trigger the check engine light after it ruins one or two of the $100 oxygen sensors. Continue adding conventional and you risk plugging the complex BMW PCV system. Once the PCV system is plugged you will start sludging up the engine, burning even more oil and/or poisoning the two catalytic converters - particularly if the oil isn't SM rated.

I have experienced all of these problems, except the catalytic converters, first hand, with a used 2000 BMW Z3M. The previous owner ran extended oil changes with conventional oil. I knew the car had been poorly maintained but the price was right and my wife and I just loved it.

When we first got the car, it was going through 1 quart of oil every 1000 miles. My eyes would burn after a long drive and the interior smelt like burnt oil. I figured I was going to faced with a very expensive engine rebuild.

I unplugged the pcv system, changed the O2 sensor, cleared the check engine light and changed the oil to Castrol Syntec 5W40. Oil usage dropped dramatically to about 1 quart every 3000 miles, the smell went away and the engine sounded much smoother.


Don't use 5W20 or 5w30 conventional! If you absolutely have to use conventional go with 15W40.


[/quote]

thanks for sharing your experience... that was really helpful
 
Ya i agree with AJ... when I went to the forum you guys recommended, I saw some of the pristine well maintained engines which showed synthetic oil run on average of 15 k miles is doing a good job and then I see sludged engines, but those pictures dont mention if he ran it on dino or if he did how long he waited in between for OCIs... So no real compelling evidence in terms of pictures or for that matter some one who actually tried running his Bimmer on dino with regular 5k intervals. I been looking and looking I havent found any pictures, physical evidence, or Oil analysis under that criteria.
 
Originally Posted By: Tobin
thanks trajan..

I am looking into DIY oil changes.. I got a few video references online how to do oil changes and theres books at the library for car maintenence.

oil extractor will be good time saving tool


Your welcome.

Might I suggest you look at the links that have been posted about used oil analysis? If nothing else, you'll see the benefits of using the correct oil.

About oil. Both the CG 0-30 and the Mobil 1 0w-40 are good oils. IIRC, the former you can get at AutoZone. I think it will say European formula on the front, and made in Germany on the back.

But to my point. Check to see if they're running sales, rebates, whatever. That does take the sting out of the price of the synth. I've heard that you can buy MANN filters in bulk off of ebay. I know you can get them from Amsoil.

You do have a nice car. With proper care, it will last you a long time. The dealership that services my car has a wall with the names of people who own cars that have gone, 100-300,000 miles. I aim to add mine to that list.

Might I also suggest you join a forum such as bimmerfest or bimmerforum. You will learn alot, maybe even more that you'll ever want to know, about your model.
 
Originally Posted By: Trajan
I've heard that you can buy MANN filters in bulk off of ebay.

Last time I bought some filters from these guys. The OEM Mann/Mahle oil filters are $5 and change. Granted, you'll have to factor in shipping, but if you buy other things at the same time (I bought several air/oil/cabin filters for two of our cars) then the shipping isn't all that much overall. And they're very quick, too.
 
A bad PCV could account for any/all bad results.

Sooo, if BMW oil is "fine" at 15k, why wouldnt' an "equivalent" (my word) oil work JUST AS well?

If, and I do mean "if" the ~engine~ itself appears to be able to run 15k on BMW oil, an oil that's really nothing special, that tells me it's even MORE likely that it will do fine on HD/HM/PC-SM oil too, at a more conservative interval.(if not better, lol)

North American conventional oil products have improved since the 1990's when it common to find SH on the sheves and SJ was the best standard. Should we divert to compare the actual test sequences for SH/SJ with SM? BMW's recommendation made sense in 2001, but not in 2009 North America.

Of all the parameters considered by the mfg, it appears to me that extended drain intervals are what's primary, hence the spec name: BMW "Long-Life-01".
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Trajan
I've heard that you can buy MANN filters in bulk off of ebay.

Last time I bought some filters from these guys. The OEM Mann/Mahle oil filters are $5 and change. Granted, you'll have to factor in shipping, but if you buy other things at the same time (I bought several air/oil/cabin filters for two of our cars) then the shipping isn't all that much overall. And they're very quick, too.


All right. Another add to the favorites list!! And in the same area code.

edit: Checked it out. A choice of three. Mahle, Bosch, and Mann.
Less than $6 for a $16 filter is a great deal.

Thanks for that.
 
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Trajan, they'll probably charge you tax since you're in PA, so it may not be the best. But if they're local, then maybe you can just pick it up yourself and save on shipping...


You might try autohausaz.com also.
 
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Thanks QP.

Even with the tax though,(6%), that isn't bad.

Autohaus. Another for the list. Heard good things about them.

Thanks!!
 
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API Engine Oil Classifications 2004
Passenger Car Engine Test Category For API SJ And SL
Requirements Test Method Properties Unit Limits
SJ/EC
GF-2 SL/EC
GF-3
1. LABORATORY TESTS
1.1 Viscosity Grades All those that apply, typically SAE 5w30 and 10w30. Per SAE J300 specification Manufacturer sets targets within SAE J300 parameter
1.2 Foam Test ASTM D892 Sequence I ml initial
Foam/ml
after setting 10/0 max 10/0 max
Sequence II 50/0 max 50/0 max
Sequence III 10/0 max 10/0 max
Sequence IV 200/50 max 100/0 max
1.3 Phosphorus ASTM D4951 or D5185 0.10 max 0.10 max
1.4 EOFT GM 9099P 0.6% Water - with dry ice -% reduction in flow % 50 max 50 max
1.5 EOWTT 0.6% Water - without dry ice -% rate of change % report 50 max
1.0% Water - without dry ice -% rate of change % report 50 max
2.0% Water - without dry ice -% rate of change % report 50 max
3.0% Water - without dry ice -% rate of change % report 50 max
1.6 TEOST ASTM D6335 Total Deposits, max mg 60 max NR
1.7 TEOST (MHT4) Total Deposits, max mg NR 45 max
1.8 Homogeneity and Miscibility FTM STD 791C pass pass
1.9 Scanning Brookfield ASTM D5133 Gelation Index 12 max 12 max
1.10 Volatility ASTM D5800 Volatility (Noack), % off % 22 max 15 max
ASTM D6417 Volatility (GCD), % off % 17 max 10 max
2. ENGINE TESTS FOR API SJ AND SL
2.1 BRT ASTM D6557 Rust rating Gray value 100 min 100 min
2.2 Sequence IIIF % Viscosity increase at 60 hours, max % 325 max NR
% Viscosity increase at 80 hours, max % NR 275
Average piston skirt varnish rating, min merits 8.5 min 9.0 min
Weighted piston deposit rating, min merits 3.2 min 4.0 min
Cam plus lifter wear avg, max microns 20 max 20 max
Hot stuck rings # none none
Oil consumption, max liters 6.5 5.2 max
Low-temperature viscosity performance Cp NR rate and report
2.3 Sequence IVA Cam wear average, max microns 120 max 120 max
2.4 Sequence VG ASTM D6593 Average engine sludge, min merits 7.8 min 7.8 min
Rocker arm cover sludge, min merits 8.0 min 8.0 min
Average piston skirt varnish, min merits 7.5 min 7.5 min
Average engine varnish, min merits 8.9 min 8.9 min
Oil screen clogging, max % 20 max 20 max
Hot stuck compression rings # none none
Cold stuck rings # rate and report rate and report
Oil screen debris % rate and report rate and report
Oil ring clogging % rate and report rate and report
2.5 Sequence VE
(Only if oil Phosphorus
< 0.08%) ASTM D5302 Cam wear
Average, max
microns NR 127 max
Maximum, max
microns NR 380 max
2.6 Sequence VIII Bearing weight loss, max mg 26.4 max 26.4 max
10 hr stripped viscosity cSt Stay in grade Stay in grade
2.7 Sequence VIB
(FEI1 using BC before only) For viscosity grades:
OW-20 and 5W-20 % improvement 2.0 NR
Other OW- and 5W- multigrades % improvement 1.6 NR
All 10W- multigrades % improvement 0.9 NR
2.8 Sequence VIB OW-20 and 5W-20 (FEI1/FEI2/sum), min % improvement NR 2.0/1.7/NR
OW-30 and 5w30 (FEI1/FEI2/sum), min % improvement NR 1.6/1.3/3.0 min
All other viscosity grades (FEI1/FEI2/sum), min % improvement NR 0.9/0.6/1.6 min

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http://www.infineum.com/information/api-passenger-sj-sl-2004.html



Passenger Car Engine Test Category For API SM
Requirements
Test Properties Unit
Limits
Method SM/EC
GF-4
1. LABORATORY TESTS
1.1 Viscosity Grades All those that apply, typically SAE OW-20, Manufacturer sets targets
OW-30, 5W-20,5w30 and 10w30. within SAE J300 specification
1.2 Foam Test ASTM D892 Sequence I ml initial 10/0 max
(Option A) Sequence II Foam/ml 50/0 max
Sequence III after settling 10/0 max
ASTM D6082 Sequence IV 100/0 max
1.3 Phosphorus ASTM D4951 Phosphorus content % 0.06 min
0.08 max(1)
1.4 EOFT ASTM D6795 0.6% Water-with dry ice-% reduction in flow % reduction 50 max
1.5 EOWTT ASTM D6794 with 0.6% Water % reduction 50 max
with 1.0% Water % reduction 50 max
with 2.0% Water % reduction 50 max
with 3.0% Water % reduction 50 max
1.6 TEOST (MHT4) Total Deposits mg 35 max(2)
1.7 Homogeneity & Miscibility ASTM D6922 Oil Compatibilty pass
1.8 Scanning Brookfield ASTM D5133 Gelation Index 12 max
1.9 Volatility ASTM D5800 Volatility (Noack) % off @ 250°C 15 max
ASTM D6417 Volatility (GCD) % off @ 371°C 10 max
1.10 BRT ASTM D6557 Rust rating Avg Gray Value 100 min
1.11 Sulfur ASTM D4951 or Sulfur content of 0W and 5W multigrades % 0.5 max(3)
ASTM D2622 Sulfur content of 10W multigrades % 0.7 max
2. ENGINE TESTS FOR API SM
2.1 Sequence IIIG Viscosity increase at 100 hours % 150 max
Average weighted piston deposits merits 3.5 min
Hot stuck rings # none
Average cam plus lifter wear microns 60 max
2.2 Sequence IIIGA ASTM D4684 Aged oil low temperature viscosity Meet requirements of the
Cp original grade or the next
higher grade(4)
2.3 Sequence IVA ASTM D6891 Cam wear average microns 90 max
2.4 Sequence VG ASTM D6593 Average engine sludge merits 7.8 min
Rocker arm cover sludge merits 8.0 min
Average piston skirt varnish merits 7.5 min
Average engine varnish merits 8.9 min
Oil screen clogging % 20 max
Hot stuck rings # none
Cold stuck rings # rate & report
Oil ring clogging % rate & report
Follower pin wear, cyl #8, avg microns rate & report
Ring gap increase, cyl #1 & #8, avg microns rate & report
Oil screen debris % area rate & report
2.5 Sequence VIII ASTM D6709 Bearing weight loss mg 26 max
10 hr. stripped viscosity cSt Stay in grade
2.6 Sequence VIB ASTM D6837 SAE 0W-20 and 5W-20 viscosity grades % FEI1/%FEI2 2.3 / 2.0 min
(Required for ILSAC GF-4 only) SAE 0w30 and 5w30 viscosity grades % FEI1/%FEI2 1.8 / 1.5 min
SAE 10w30 and all other viscosity grades % FEI1/%FEI2 1.1 / 0.8 min
Limits for SM Non-ILSAC GF-4 viscosity grades:
(1) 0.06 min, no max
(2) 45 max
(3) Not Req.
(4) Not Req.

http://www.infineum.com/information/api_...%20-%202008.pdf




This one is interesting..

http://www.infineum.com/information/api_...%20-%202008.pdf

"High-Shear-Rate
Viscosity(6), mPa-s
at 150°C

3.5cP (0W-40, 5W-40, 10W-40 grades)"

Base oil performance could be idential between G-II and G-III

"Base/Visc Index/Saturates & Sulphur
II 80 - 120 ≥90% and III >120 ≥90% and <0.03%"
 
Originally Posted By: sprintman
BMW 5W30 has shown great results where used but most BMW engines worldwide use Mobil 1 0W40 for 15,000 mile, 25,000 km oci. Anyway here are the three largest U.S BMW forums which I think are the best BMW forums I have found anywhere. Enjoy...s

wwww.e46fanatics.com

http://www.bimmerforums.com

http://www.bimmerfest.com


All good. I joined the 'fest, and go through the other two. Did you see this? http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1237427

I think Bo and Luke Duke would of made that jump... Certainly KITT would of.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
AJ... You're asking for someone to disregard the manufacturer recommendations and use their own car as a guinea pig to verify if your unproven assumptions will work or not...


How else will BITOGr's learn if their theories hold water.
 
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