Is Mobil 1 0w-40 too thin?

0w8 is still limited to newest cars like Corolla, Crown, Camry, and Yaris Hybrid. I do not hesitate to use 0w8 if the price not astronomical. These days, I can get cheap ACEA C6 or 508 509 VW oil for €40 per 10L, but not 0w-16 or 0w8.
 
Well except the engine in question here wasn't actually spec'd for 0w20, other than in the owners manual for MPG purposes at the expense of engine wear.
You're right, manufacturer's specifications aren't real. Aftermarket enthusiast specifications, sometimes arrived at by looking at the owners manual from Australia and Russia...those are the real specifications.
 
You're right, manufacturer's specifications aren't real. Aftermarket enthusiast specifications, sometimes arrived at by looking at the owners manual from Australia and Russia...those are the real specifications.
Well for one thing they aren't specifications, they are recommendations. And they are highly influenced by outside factors. Manufacturers have found that without engine modifications an HT/HS of about 2.6 is the minimum they can recommend without the engine incurring excessive wear. Below that you need to have design changes to the engine.

And, if you read the EPA award letters I have posted here you see that the manufacturer must vigorously discourage the use of any oil grade that was not used to obtain fuel economy values. Whether you agree with it or not, CAFE does indeed push the manufacturer to use any means possible to meet the required economy standards, and part of that is the use of lower viscosity oils. Couple that with the EPA recommendation requirements and this shows how the manual is written. Not only here in the US, but elsewhere that has either mileage or emission requirements.

None of which invalidates the physics behind how an oil lubricates an engine and how wear is controlled. It's still a fact that a higher film thickness results in lower wear. And with many engines having issues with fuel dilution the use of a higher grade is not only warranted, it is beneficial. Thinner oils give no real advantage whatsoever except for reduced fuel consumption. So unless that is your one and only goal then physics still rules.

So yes manufacturer recommendations are real but not real for the spurious reasons people sometimes think they are.
 
Well for one thing they aren't specifications, they are recommendations. And they are highly influenced by outside factors. Manufacturers have found that without engine modifications an HT/HS of about 2.6 is the minimum they can recommend without the engine incurring excessive wear. Below that you need to have design changes to the engine.

And, if you read the EPA award letters I have posted here you see that the manufacturer must vigorously discourage the use of any oil grade that was not used to obtain fuel economy values. Whether you agree with it or not, CAFE does indeed push the manufacturer to use any means possible to meet the required economy standards, and part of that is the use of lower viscosity oils. Couple that with the EPA recommendation requirements and this shows how the manual is written. Not only here in the US, but elsewhere that has either mileage or emission requirements.

None of which invalidates the physics behind how an oil lubricates an engine and how wear is controlled. It's still a fact that a higher film thickness results in lower wear. And with many engines having issues with fuel dilution the use of a higher grade is not only warranted, it is beneficial. Thinner oils give no real advantage whatsoever except for reduced fuel consumption. So unless that is your one and only goal then physics still rules.

So yes manufacturer recommendations are real but not real for the spurious reasons people sometimes think they are.
Okay, whatevs. My point in post #11 stands. My argument wasn't/isn't against M1-FS 0w-40. (It's what goes in my 2gr-fe.) My argument was/is FOR 0w-40, but against criticizing it for being at the low end of the 40w designated range.

Car was "recommended" for 20 weight, and I'm sure the manufacturer did due testing with said oil recommendation. Despite this, we're worried that 40 weight isn't good enough for a tune-only application.

How many centistokes do we want? I guess all of them.
 
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Okay, whatevs. My point in post #11 stands. My argument wasn't/isn't against MR-FS 0w-40. (It's what goes in my 2gr-fe.) My argument was/is FOR 0w-40, but against criticizing it for being at the low end of the 40w designated range.

Car was "recommended" for 20 weight, and I'm sure the manufacturer did due testing with said oil recommendation. Despite this, we're worried that 40 weight isn't good enough for a tune-only application.

How many centistokes do we want? I guess all of them.


with an E85 tune

That's why he's worried. Personally, I'd expect the seals on his direct injectors to fail from the increased cylinder pressure (since this is a problem on the 19+ EA888.3 cars) before he has an oil-related failure from the "thin" 0w40.

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These should just be mandatory in any 0w20 VW 508 thread. The only difference in this motor is that the oil pump has less teeth to help make up for the pressure loss from running 0w20 for economy. There are many, many people with these motors running the typical 502 40 grade oils without problem, it is simply not an issue. In my view the only question is whether he might as well step up to a 50 grade, but the availability of M1 0w40 is hard to beat.
 
That's why he's worried. Personally, I'd expect the seals on his direct injectors to fail from the increased cylinder pressure (since this is a problem on the 19+ EA888.3 cars) before he has an oil-related failure from the "thin" 0w40.

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These should just be mandatory in any 0w20 VW 508 thread. The only difference in this motor is that the oil pump has less teeth to help make up for the pressure loss from running 0w20 for economy. There are many, many people with these motors running the typical 502 40 grade oils without problem, it is simply not an issue. In my view the only question is whether he might as well step up to a 50 grade, but the availability of M1 0w40 is hard to beat.
Dealerships were filling VW502.00 Castrol for years in Budack cycle EA888.
 
Generally, we can always use higher HTHS rating oil and lower pouring temp. For instance if the recommend is 5w30, then one can use:

0w30, 0w40, 5w40, 5w50, etc. but not 0w16 or thinner. 0wxx oil is usually made out of group iii or better base.

I am not sure if using base thicker 10w30, 15w40, or 10w60 is a good idea if we don't live in hot climate. In 3rd world countries, where fuel quality varies a lot and contains high sulfur and 30%+ biofuel, then 3-4k miles interval is a must. Mineral oil base is very common with 10w40 or 15w40.
 
@edyvw the newer VW standard is usually better than older one, especially with wear and catalytic converter friendly. In terms of wear protection, 504/507 is still the best.

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@edyvw the newer VW standard is usually better than older one, especially with wear and catalytic converter friendly. In terms of wear protection, 504/507 is still the best.
The lubrizol chart should probably just be banned. These are minimums set by the standard. Oils can of course exceed them, and a 3.9 HTHS 502 obviously has more wear protection than a 3.5 HTHS 504. That chart does not mean that all 504 oils are better than all 502 oils.
 
Im glad there are members like you who corrects our mistakes.

Would you also say thicker oil does not increase the pressure? Because I am also under the impression that if it does, and there was this dude called Bernoulli that might have found a negative relationship between a fluid's speed and pressure

Seriously though, I am a mechanical engineer, and I am quite surprised how factually wrong a significant amount of comments on this forum. I used to believe older members with more posts might have been better educated, but I am seeing that there is an echo chamber effect going on with misinformation
Neil deGrasse Tyson's aphorism, "One of the great challenges in life is knowing enough about a subject to think you're right, but not enough to know you're wrong," comes to mind. It applies to oil pressure misconceptions as well.

Static pressure decreases with velocity to conserve total pressure as dynamic pressure rises. Oil pressure sensors, not always at stagnation points, typically measure combined static and dynamic pressure. Most oil pumps are positive displacement and sized to minimize pressure delay and maintain flow at low idle with hot, thin oil—the worst-case scenario due to:
  1. Thinner oils flowing faster through the engine's effective orifice.
  2. Increased internal leakage in the pump chamber.
  3. Lower RPM reducing swept volume rate and pump efficiency.
Consequently, most engines reach oil pump bypass/regulation between 1300–2000 RPM (e.g., Cummins engines by ~1400 RPM). Above this, oil flow and pressure stabilize, as excess flow is diverted by the relief valve to prevent overpressure. Only at very high RPM with thick, cold oil might the bypass become restrictive, allowing pressure to rise. Thicker oil doesn't increase pressure in the typical operating range; it lowers the RPM at which regulation occurs. Thinner oil raises it. Since pressure is regulated, thicker oil reduces parasitic flow through the engine's effective orifice, not increases pressure, except below regulation (e.g., <1400 RPM).

As a mechanical engineer specializing in engines, I’m surprised by how many engineers misunderstand engine specifics. General mechanical knowledge isn’t enough—engines require specialized expertise. I once heard of a colleague with an MSME asking, “What’s a camshaft?” at a company with “engine” in its name. Specialization matters. When exposed to areas outside my lane (like metallurgy) I tend to pay attention as best I can, because I'm surely a student and not a teacher in that context. But to non-engineering friends and family, they think I know a lot about metals. Maybe I do, but only compared to a complete ignoramus. Conversely, I'm the ignoramus compared to a true expert. It's all relative.

The point here is that being an engineer doesn't make one an expert on all things. And there are quite a few people who have expertise far surpassing what many engineers have, partly because it was obtained by a humble desire or fiery passion to learn, unimpeded by a dunning-kruger-like perception of one's own sphere of competence.
 
Probably we should have a better way to use Lubrizol or Oronite charts. I agree that thicker oil has better last layer protection (base oil film strength) than thinner oil. However, without running UOA on each particular engine, we do not know thew wear number, just argument and hypothesis.
 
The lubrizol chart should probably just be banned. These are minimums set by the standard. Oils can of course exceed them, and a 3.9 HTHS 502 obviously has more wear protection than a 3.5 HTHS 504. That chart does not mean that all 504 oils are better than all 502 oils.
This is a total non-sequitur. It is NOT the case that a higher HTHS oil "obviously has more wear protection." Just as it's not that case that all 504 oils are better than all 502 oils.

If you have enough HTHS, you have enough HTHS. This is why almost all Euro oils spec the same 3.5 minimum for both 40 grades and 30 grades.

I'm not aware of any OEM certification of any kind that requires an HTHS above 3.5. Is there one?
 
@edyvw the newer VW standard is usually better than older one, especially with wear and catalytic converter friendly. In terms of wear protection, 504/507 is still the best.

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The specifications differ in their requirements.

504 has an EU-mandated wear test component (RNT Wear Test), while 502 00/505 00 requires higher merit points on the MB sludge test and has the VW TDi piston test. 504 has stricter cam wear parameters, but foregoes bore polish and cylinder wear.

And of course, these parameters are typically combined with those from other OEM's, like Mercedes, which I'm not going to post again, as I've shared them in the past, but this all means that the Lubrizol tool can give you results that are misleading.
 
502 and 504 have the same minimum HTHS >=3.5

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If you are looking for just above 3.5 and not 3.5 and above (which I think I misinterpreted your earlier statement to mean) then we have MIL-PRF-2104H, which mandates a minimum HTHS of 3.7cP:
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Edit, PSA mandates an HTHS >3.5cP:
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Edit #2: Volvo VDS-3 97487-15 has 3.7cP as the minimum:
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And VDS-4 has 3.9 as the minimum after a 90-cycle shear test:
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As does VDS-4.5.

Cummins 20076 has a minimum HTHS of 3.7cP:
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And Detroit Diesel DDC93K214 has the same 90-cycle post shear HTHS minimum of 3.9cP that Volvo has, with a base HTHS min of 4.2cP:
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Mack also has a minimum HTHS of 3.7cP for xW-40 grades.
 
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