Is it time to just say no?

[FoxS]

What's the secret ingredient in PP Mystic?

Pennzoil say Ultra cleans more so why wouldn't you recommend that instead?

I also heard that Quaker State Ultimate Durability is very similar to PP.

The PQIA testing listed the additives in ppm in full syn. Which one(s) compared to the competition suggest it cleans more than other syns or is there something else about its chemistry?

Lastly, are you saying we don't need to add MMO to the PP even though the MMO is cheap? I don't know what's in MMO and the oil and car manufacturers say don't add anything, so to me it doesn't matter how cheap an additive is, I'm not going to try it unless I know a lot more about it and how it interacts with the precisely balanced additive packages in all oils.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: sprintman
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
How about increased compression, reduced fuel consumption, and an engine that looks clean too?


I've been seeing that for over a decade, but I really couldn't care if there was an inch of sludge/varnish whatever on every single surface, it's irrelevant to me. An engine that revs to 5,500+ insted of struggling to 4,000, not even half way to into my 7,500 mile/10,000km clean cycle, and has 12-15 psi compression increase, does it for me. It will only get better by the finish.


I've seen it too, only a lot longer than a decade, I must be older than you.

I can get my stuff at Walmart.

Back on topic: The question was "Is it time to say no?" I don't think so, I think there will always be a need for something other than oil for cleaning up an engine, or silencing noisy lifters. I stated my reasons earlier. I don't think oil alone has the ability to clean up a really messy engine or silence noisy lifers in problem engines. Maybe one day my opinion will change, but it hasn't changed yet. YMMV

 

[Mystic]

Just about everything a person needs you can get at Wal-Mart. You can get your motor oil and if you want to use MMO you can get it there. I can't find Pennzoil Ultra however at my Wal-Mart, but I would just use Mobil 1 High Mileage.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: V8man
Originally Posted By: sprintman
but I really do not care if there was an inch of sludge/varnish whatever on every single surface


This tells me that the oil additive you are using does not remove sludge and varnish


It tells me that it cleans where it matters.

Originally Posted By: V8man


If you are looking at increasing compression you can get that from Pennzoil Platinum, Pennzoil Platinum can do it faster and of course, cheaper.


You have before and after compression tests to prove that?

 

[FoxS]

What's the secret ingredient in PP Mystic?

Pennzoil say Ultra cleans more so why wouldn't you recommend that instead?

I also heard that Quaker State Ultimate Durability is very similar to PP.

The PQIA testing listed the additives in ppm in full syn. Which one(s) compared to the competition suggest it cleans more than other syns or is there something else about its chemistry?

Lastly, are you saying we don't need to add MMO to the PP even though the MMO is cheap? I don't know what's in MMO and the oil and car manufacturers say don't add anything, so to me it doesn't matter how cheap an additive is, I'm not going to try it unless I know a lot more about it and how it interacts with the precisely balanced additive packages in all oils.

 

[sprintman]

Originally Posted By: V8man
Originally Posted By: sprintman
but I really do not care if there was an inch of sludge/varnish whatever on every single surface


This tells me that the oil additive you are using does not remove sludge and varnish, then again some of these other oil additives might not remove varnish or sludge. As far as increasing compression, how many people buy an oil additive for increasing compression.

Someone might have a noisy engine which might mean a dirty or restricted lifter, maybe they have smoke blowing out there tailpipe, or they look inside the oil fill hole and see some grime.

If you are looking at increasing compression you can get that from Pennzoil Platinum, there is more than one way in skinning a cat. Your oil additive can increase compression, but Pennzoil Platinum can do it faster and of course, cheaper.


PP is Shell Helix Ultra which I've used since Jesus played fullback for Jerusalen and it didn't clean s---. I'll stick to what actually works thanks.

 

[sprintman]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: V8man
Originally Posted By: sprintman
but I really do not care if there was an inch of sludge/varnish whatever on every single surface


This tells me that the oil additive you are using does not remove sludge and varnish


It tells me that it cleans where it matters.

Originally Posted By: V8man


If you are looking at increasing compression you can get that from Pennzoil Platinum, Pennzoil Platinum can do it faster and of course, cheaper.


You have before and after compression tests to prove that?


You know [censored] well he doesn't!

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: FoxS
We only need to clean the mechanically significant parts of the engine.

Yet we take pictures of the mechanically insignificant parts and then say the cleaner did not clean.

The funny thing about the last round of testing and photographs was that even the owner of Auto RX bought into the success criteria as being cleaning the mechanically insignificant parts.

As you go round and round in your arguments, step back and ask yourself whether you're participating in a Pepsi taste challenge commercial or if you're more interested in figuring out the interaction of mechanics and chemicals viz cleaning of different parts of the engine.



This is actually quite poignant as we waste so much time debating the effectiveness of various cleaners by looking at pictures of valve covers and such. Obviously the visual is not as important as the mechanical results.

But if I add cleaner "K" and my engine quiets down in less than one minute after its introduction I am pleased even without some sort of visual 'proof'. Same if my oil consumption goes away or my hot carbon knock stops dramatically. Each member here is expected/allowed to have their own standard to judge effectiveness.

Mine varies...

 

[simple_gifts]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: FoxS
"only seem to increase compression"

LOL

How can something "seem" to increase compression? It either does or it doesn't.



Increased compression using Pennzoil is "cleaning" If say, Auto-RX (there I said it) does it, it is not.


Without a compression test, you don't know if it increased compression or not. "Seems" to doesn't cut it.


I've seen dnewton's test. That is satisfactory to me; I don't care about the top of the oil baffle on the underside of the valve cover. There is no "work" being done there.

The OP's original assertion
Quote:

We have no evidence that any expensive engine cleaner will clean an engine.

is invalidated. People are now going on to redefine what clean is...

They could, of course, try to explain the increased compression, but that would involve using the word "clean"

 

[Trajan]

I've seen dnewton's tests as well. They work for me. I don't care about the top of the oil baffle either, but if it isn't clean, then some think the additive doesn't work.

Never mind that the only time oil or additive touches it is when you pour it in.

 

[demarpaint]

Well then I guess if looks don't matter Kreen worked great in Artem's engine. LOL

 

[simple_gifts]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Well then I guess if looks don't matter Kreen worked great in Artem's engine. LOL


Did he provide compression readings?

Funny what people consider conclusive when there are no before and after measurements, just a "finger in the wind" interpretation. I don't know what the Kreen reference is for, but there is a clear way of determining whether something has impacted the functioning area of the engine, and few people have solid #'s to backup something working, or not.

This is basic science; not sure why some are having a problem with it.

 

[Mystic]

I can see pretty good with my eyes and the photographs that were shown here of engine interiors where Mobil 1 or Pennzoil Platinum had been used were very clear. It would be obvious to anybody who can see that those motor oils had kept the engines clean. Anybody who can see would be able to tell those engines were much cleaner than the engine Artem is trying to clean.

A cleaner should clean an engine. You want compression to increase and fuel mileage to increase. But the entire engine should be reasonably clean if the cleaner is doing its job.

If the cleaner is unable to clean the entire engine than the cleaner should be advertised as a compression and fuel mileage improver.

If somebody was having their engine physically cleaned and they were shown the 'cleaned' engine and it was as dirty as before, but the mechanics were saying that compression had increased the person owning the vehicle would not accept the cleaning.

Over time there should be some cleaning. Maybe there will still be varnish but some degree of cleaning should be visible.

 

[simple_gifts]

Quote:

Maybe there will still be varnish but some degree of cleaning should be visible.


Compression readings increased; it is visible.

If someone takes a blood pressure medicine to reduce pressure, how does the doctor determine the medicine is working.... the person is less red? No he MEASURES it.

 

[Mystic]

MMO or Kreen might increase compression values. There are other products that can clean rings. If the expensive engine cleaner can clean no better than any motor oil than a person might as well just use motor oil or else get the engine physically cleaned. And find some reasonably priced product that can improve compression.

Seeing is believing. It is no sale to me if there is no apparent cleaning of the engine by the expensive engine cleaner. Go find somebody else who will buy it. I have seen more evidence of a product working in the case of some oil supplements like Lubegard Biotech Engine Protectant or Schaeffer's oil supplement where engine performance seemed to increase.

An engine cleaner is supposed to clean. If it is unable to clean the product apparently does not work as advertised. Is this now being admitted here? Were not photographs of a cleaned engine shown at the website of one of the expensive engine cleaners?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Well then I guess if looks don't matter Kreen worked great in Artem's engine. LOL


Did he provide compression readings?

Funny what people consider conclusive when there are no before and after measurements, just a "finger in the wind" interpretation. I don't know what the Kreen reference is for, but there is a clear way of determining whether something has impacted the functioning area of the engine, and few people have solid #'s to backup something working, or not.

This is basic science; not sure why some are having a problem with it.




No he didn't provide compression readings, that wasn't what he was trying to improve. IIRC the A-Rx + was given to him to test for cleaning up the engine. If it was given to him for improving compression I'm sure he would have posted before and after compression results.

For the record there are some MMO compression improvement results on this site too showing MMO improved compression. I posted results a few years back, and IIRC there were a few others as well. I think I read about one of the fast flushes doing the same thing. There are a few products that have shown improvements in compression.

 

[Trav]

I have done compression test before and after Kreen, Pro-Tec, LM and a few others and saw good improvements in a very short time. No clean and rinse cycle that takes thousands of miles, 30 min or less.

The problem is with compression test and the reason i don't post any results is simple, i don't have the right tool!
I would not take anyone's word for it, i don't care who it is or what they are i want to see proof.
If i posted numbers some would instantly say i am in the tank for this product or that and ask me to prove my results which of course i couldn't.

Show me one one done with one of these and now we can talk proof! Otherwise its all pretty much hearsay and wasting everyones time!

http://www.motometer.de/recording-compression-tester.html

 

[Mystic]

Well, if people provide evidence that compression readings increased and fuel mileage improved using Kreen or MMO than that is evidence of those products working, correct? Even if no sludge seems to get removed from the engine.

If the only things that are important for an engine cleaner to achieve are improved compression numbers and improved fuel mileage we will look at those things and disregard that the engine looks as dirty as it did before.

 

[Mystic]

We can have some compression tests with that compression tester Trav talked about and see what products increase compression. I am sure there are several products that might increase compression. We could test several products-MMO, Kreen, LM, Seafoam, Restore, Auto-RX Plus, etc.

What if compression readings go up with several of those products? Do we then just pick the cheapest product that works in the least amount of time?

After all, apparently engine appearance does not count when it comes to an engine cleaner, correct?

 

[Mystic]

Maybe if somebody wants a clean engine they just remove some parts like the oil pan or valve covers or the overhead cam cover and clean as well as they can, replace seals and reinstall parts, and use some reasonably priced product that can improve compression. Maybe use Mobil 1 oil after the engine is cleaned. A person could do all of that for less than using 2-3 bottles of expensive engine cleaner at a time and doing several cleanings.