Thanks, I have investments in the oil industry and made over 50% return last year!
Is Break-in Oil a myth
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Thanks, I have investments in the oil industry and made over 50% return last year!
How did you determine the Ford PSD comes from the factory with a 10W-30 oil? Did you pull a sample with low miles and send it off to be analyzed?
Thank all the people who buy Syn and change it well under 10k.
The oil industry makes more $$ on Syn than Dino. $5 a quart compaired to $2 a quart.
If I buy $1 a quart dino oil (on sale) and change it out at 4k, you'd need to run on sale Syn ($4 a quart) out to 16k.
We don't see very much 16k OCIs around here. More like 5k-7k with syn..
(And you know as well as I do the reason why you made $$ had very little to do with engine oil...)
It was the Gas/Diesel Fuels!
Take care, Bill
PS: I'm in the Break-in oil is a myth camp.. Honda likes a assy lube with tons of moly!
I don't think EOM made all those billions last quarter on motor oils. That $2.50 gasoline had a bit to do with it.
As far as "break in" oil goes, it was more prevalent before the 1960s, but even by the mid 1960s, many manufacturers used standard oil as factory fill.
With the improvements in machining and materials technologies in more recent years, most engines are mostly broken in by the time they reach the dealer's lot. Factory cylinder boring and honing in particular has reached a high science unheard of in the old days, and glazing is hardly a concern anymore. I consequently have a hard time accepting the "high spots" argument, particularly with as precise a manufacturer as Honda.
But more importantly, most manufacturers don't want to trust critical break in to the vehicle owner for warranty reasons, so I am very skeptical that special oils or procedures are now really mandatory in most cases. You really have to go well out of your way to harm a new engine today with "bad break in" habits.
But conversely, I'll still change out the factory fill at 500 miles to flush out any remaining foundary contaminants, even though the old-school justification for that has equally receded from the improved production techniques.
As far as "break in" oil goes, it was more prevalent before the 1960s, but even by the mid 1960s, many manufacturers used standard oil as factory fill.
With the improvements in machining and materials technologies in more recent years, most engines are mostly broken in by the time they reach the dealer's lot. Factory cylinder boring and honing in particular has reached a high science unheard of in the old days, and glazing is hardly a concern anymore. I consequently have a hard time accepting the "high spots" argument, particularly with as precise a manufacturer as Honda.
But more importantly, most manufacturers don't want to trust critical break in to the vehicle owner for warranty reasons, so I am very skeptical that special oils or procedures are now really mandatory in most cases. You really have to go well out of your way to harm a new engine today with "bad break in" habits.
But conversely, I'll still change out the factory fill at 500 miles to flush out any remaining foundary contaminants, even though the old-school justification for that has equally receded from the improved production techniques.
Red Line specifically doesn't recommend their own oil for the first 3000 miles of a new engine.
Peter
Peter
"With the improvements in machining and materials technologies in more recent years, most engines are mostly broken in by the time they reach the dealer's lot. Factory cylinder boring and honing in particular has reached a high science unheard of in the old days, and glazing is hardly a concern anymore."
Agree - cars/trucks get a real hard run-in when started for the fist time on the assembly line rollers. Visit an assembly plant and see...vroom vroom squeallllllll...I think about 80% of the engine break in is done by the time the lot shuttlers get the unit on the train and offloaded at the dealer...they are NOT generally gentle with the near virgin engines.
Most OEMs do not use a very special factory oil (assembly lubes excepted). One account personally I know of only specifies some extra QC tests at shipment and a CofA FAXed with batch info per bulk load. This is pretty typical of most auto OEMs I think.
They do tend to buy from major companies due to the supply reliablity, technical consulting, and "deep pockets" of the firm if somethign is wrong with the products (VERY ulikly to be off-test, almost nil possiblity of materially, damagingly bad PCMO).
A railroad had their own "custom blend" RR Diesel Oil a few years ago (these oils are Zn-free due to silver bearings IIRC) from a smaller low-price manufacturer. They got bad oil and had an insurance claim mess with damaged locomotives as I heard of it...
Agree - cars/trucks get a real hard run-in when started for the fist time on the assembly line rollers. Visit an assembly plant and see...vroom vroom squeallllllll...I think about 80% of the engine break in is done by the time the lot shuttlers get the unit on the train and offloaded at the dealer...they are NOT generally gentle with the near virgin engines.
Most OEMs do not use a very special factory oil (assembly lubes excepted). One account personally I know of only specifies some extra QC tests at shipment and a CofA FAXed with batch info per bulk load. This is pretty typical of most auto OEMs I think.
They do tend to buy from major companies due to the supply reliablity, technical consulting, and "deep pockets" of the firm if somethign is wrong with the products (VERY ulikly to be off-test, almost nil possiblity of materially, damagingly bad PCMO).
A railroad had their own "custom blend" RR Diesel Oil a few years ago (these oils are Zn-free due to silver bearings IIRC) from a smaller low-price manufacturer. They got bad oil and had an insurance claim mess with damaged locomotives as I heard of it...
GC is factory-fill in Audis, M1 0w-40 is in some other cars.
"Factory-fill" with a synthetic does not mean that the engine was filled with or run on the stuff at assembly.
Case in point: the "Mobil 1 factory-fill" Corvette engines are first bench run and broken in on a straight weight dino at the engine assembly plant before being shipped off to Bowling Green.
Case in point: the "Mobil 1 factory-fill" Corvette engines are first bench run and broken in on a straight weight dino at the engine assembly plant before being shipped off to Bowling Green.
I used to be a proponent of changing the oil in a new car at or before 1000 miles to "get rid of wear metals and contaminents from the break in period". Then I realized that the majority of cars these days have an oil filter to filter out contaminents. I could support an argument to change a filter early (as many filters today are tiny, especially Honda's)but the oil should be fine. No flame, just an opinion.
It is not uncommon for a filter to temporarily go into bypass mode, particularly during cold warm ups. When that happens, there is no effective filtering going on.
There was also the argument that some of the remaining foundary contaminants were so fine so as to pass through the filtering media. A 1500 grit sandpaper will cut away just as much material as 60 grit, given enough time, or so it was once argued.
Again, times have greatly changed since the infant engine oil change was more customary practiced. I only do it out of habit anymore and don't think running the factory fill for a normal OCI will do any harm with today's new engines.
There was also the argument that some of the remaining foundary contaminants were so fine so as to pass through the filtering media. A 1500 grit sandpaper will cut away just as much material as 60 grit, given enough time, or so it was once argued.
Again, times have greatly changed since the infant engine oil change was more customary practiced. I only do it out of habit anymore and don't think running the factory fill for a normal OCI will do any harm with today's new engines.
I thought we were talking about break-in, a longer period than just bench testing.
". . . just bench testing"?
I don't think anyone mentioned anything about testing. But the initial bench run of a brand new engine has always been much more significant than that where break in is concerned. It was always the case, but now even more so.
Break in with a modern engine is a very limited process, and most of it is achieved very, very quickly.
I'm talking about the first several minutes of operation.
Advances in manufacturing techniques and materials science have evolved, and completed engines now roll off the line so precisely machined, and so close to specification, that the break in process is dramatically truncated. So much so that the engine assembly plant now accomplishes most of it on the bench run.
All new engines (at least among the major U.S makers) are first fired up and run on an assembly bench before shipment to vehicle assembly plants. And that's when MOST engine break in now occurs, including the most critical of all, the ring to cylinder interface.
Break in is simply the wear needed to reach optimum running dimensions. And once those optimum bearing and cylinder dimensions are reached, and friction and wear rates sharply drop off. It's sort of an inverse J curve if you were to plot it.
New engine break in is now so short because there is now so much less wear needed to reach that optimum. The factory machining process is typically THAT good.
Field rebuilds and aftermarket production are a different story, and there the more traditional break in model may still apply.
I don't think anyone mentioned anything about testing. But the initial bench run of a brand new engine has always been much more significant than that where break in is concerned. It was always the case, but now even more so.
Break in with a modern engine is a very limited process, and most of it is achieved very, very quickly.
I'm talking about the first several minutes of operation.
Advances in manufacturing techniques and materials science have evolved, and completed engines now roll off the line so precisely machined, and so close to specification, that the break in process is dramatically truncated. So much so that the engine assembly plant now accomplishes most of it on the bench run.
All new engines (at least among the major U.S makers) are first fired up and run on an assembly bench before shipment to vehicle assembly plants. And that's when MOST engine break in now occurs, including the most critical of all, the ring to cylinder interface.
Break in is simply the wear needed to reach optimum running dimensions. And once those optimum bearing and cylinder dimensions are reached, and friction and wear rates sharply drop off. It's sort of an inverse J curve if you were to plot it.
New engine break in is now so short because there is now so much less wear needed to reach that optimum. The factory machining process is typically THAT good.
Field rebuilds and aftermarket production are a different story, and there the more traditional break in model may still apply.
This subject has been beaten to death and its really (out of our hands anyway) unless you build and install the motor yourself.
I personally think all motors should have the dino oils in for at lest 500-800 miles but change the oil at 200 to get the debis in the oil out and not sit at the bottom of the pan forever.
The honing of the cylinder walls these days seats the rings once the engine gets up to temperature the first time. I like to go out and give the engine a work out the first time I drive it and then change the oil again and 500-1000 miles after that switch to synthetic.
I personally think all motors should have the dino oils in for at lest 500-800 miles but change the oil at 200 to get the debis in the oil out and not sit at the bottom of the pan forever.
The honing of the cylinder walls these days seats the rings once the engine gets up to temperature the first time. I like to go out and give the engine a work out the first time I drive it and then change the oil again and 500-1000 miles after that switch to synthetic.
There's no breakin or any special oil in my opinion. It's all about the marketing and the advertising of the wordings in the owner's manual that can confuse people. If i was the person that wrote my owner's manual, i would wrote special or some goofy words to make all of my oils seem like high quality compared to aftermarket oils (alot which are better than oem oils ahem). Basically, oem wants you to stick to or buy their oem oils rather than going to aftermarket products. With today's new vehicles, just use whatever oil weight that is specified at any given time during your warranty period and you're fine.
I think people should be more concerned with how they do the break-in than the actual "break-in oil" that's in the vehicle...
I agree Leonardo69.
A few manufacturers use an oil with high dose of MOLY to aid in "wear-in". I always change the oil in a factory new vehicle after no more than 1,000 miles to cut down on assembly particulate. Back in the seventies I had a beetle and the owners manual recommended a short first oil change to cut down on the possibility of shavings. It made sense to me then and it still does now. Cutting open the first oil filter after a thousand miles could be a real eyeopener and I will do it when I get a new vehicle
If break-in is achieved in the first few minutes of new owner operation, (!) then why do we consistently see lotsa garbage wear metals in new engines in the second and, to a lesser degree, the third oil change, not just the first oil change? Some engines spit copper out to 30,000 miles. Others, iron. Common sense and past new engine UOAs on BITOG tell me that despite others' fervent faith in the miracles of CNC machining, micropolishing, and precision casting technology, things is a wearin' far longer than some would blithely have me believe. No flame intended, but my concerns have NOT been addressed by the calming, "Don't worry, be happy!
" attitude.
Break-in is an ongoing process for XXXXX amout of miles but MOST of it takes place in the first 25 miles of operation.
I drove the new Solara home like I stole it and changed the oil at 100 miles.
Even if this really is a "feel good" thing to do, bottom line is, I feel good.
I have done this with all my 200K plus engines and they all got to that milesge with no problems and strong operation attached.
I drove the new Solara home like I stole it and changed the oil at 100 miles.
Even if this really is a "feel good" thing to do, bottom line is, I feel good.
I have done this with all my 200K plus engines and they all got to that milesge with no problems and strong operation attached.
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