My followup question would be ... how likely are these two bits to make it through a bypass valve opening?
We seem to focus on oil changes on the new cars, but another aspect is the filter change.
multiple break-in oil changes
- Thread starter 2016subbforest
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My followup question would be ... how likely are these two bits to make it through a bypass valve opening?
We seem to focus on oil changes on the new cars, but another aspect is the filter change.
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Remember when maintenance was free on BMWs for 4 years. This included oil, wipers, brake pads, brake rotors (BMW back then did rotor replacements with every pad change), etc.
When BMW had to address folks who didn't drive much (often not in winter or extra car), at first they said 1X per year regardless of mileage.
But this cost them money, and suddenly, if an owner didn't travel 6k miles in one year, they didn't get a free oil change. This sparked outrage and dinged their image. So at first they went back to the old policy, until they could reprogram everyone's cars to a 2 year oil change interval, which my CBS has today.
When one is running a business, it's quite different than when one is of means and dealing with a personal item. There is no question in my mind that BITOG'ers have means, and are not concerned with conserving resources as the highest priority (doesn't mean they do not care at all--they do, but often it's not #1). That's why I wish I still could still quote verbatim that post where someone mentioned consuming and destroying everything in sight.
edit: I did a search and found the quote from this forum. Reminds me a little of the tune, "Throwing Stones." That it was only last year, blows my mind. Thought it was a long time ago that someone said the below.
"We are all the same in the end. Little more than noisy hairless apes with advanced tools and an over developed sense of self-worth."
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I think that once the bits are caught in between the filter pleats, it is unlikely that they would come loose during filter bypass.
The bigger question is how many of these bits flow through bypass before getting caught in the filter pleats?
OVERKILL
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Yeah, I'm in the same boat, I want that large particulate out of the sump in the event that there's a filter bypass event, I don't want it re-introduced to the oil in circulation. I've seen enough visible break-in metal in oil filters to conclude that this is a reasonable practice.
That's kind of where I'm at. A UOA on a new car, to prove an early change is a good idea, may be too narrow of a look. Sometimes we have huge pieces to get out of there.
Just did a first O/C and filter @ 1330 miles on the Wrangler V6 Pentastar. Second will be @ 3k. Saw little specs on the oil drain pan. Nothing in the filter after a quick look. Easy and inexpensive and I have no regrets at all. Will install a Fumoto valve in the future as well. At the moment. not fan of their oil drain bolt w/very thin rubber gasket.
With manufacturing so good today, even at peak break-in wear metals are never at alarming levels in many engine brands. In fact, some engines on their initial break-in OCI show wear metals <20ppm across the board. I really don't think it impacts longevity much at all. It can't hurt and don't think it's a bad idea, I just don't think it's necessary.
Think of fleets running extended drains for 20k+ miles. They trend wear metals. If say Fe is 10ppm at 5k miles and ends up at 50 ppm at 20k mile drain, it's never considered a problem that 50ppm of Fe is in the oil. Not sure what the difference is really.
Think of fleets running extended drains for 20k+ miles. They trend wear metals. If say Fe is 10ppm at 5k miles and ends up at 50 ppm at 20k mile drain, it's never considered a problem that 50ppm of Fe is in the oil. Not sure what the difference is really.
Massive engine recalls seem pretty common these days. What was the root cause of bearing failure for Toyota Tundra engines? I thought it was very large particulate rather than a regular wear metals.
Maybe some, but most engines today don't show crazy high break-in metals. Some of the older GM V8s did years back but most I see today are never at crazy high levels.
It's completely fine if you want to change early, I just don't think it's that important.
That's a good number and kind of what I do.
But what shows up in a UOA are not the damaging particles, for the most part no one knows if there are huge pieces in circulation. Either they see the metals in solution (or very tiny particles) in a spectrographic analysis or they see what’s trapped in the filter media. What’s in between is not measured nor even tested.
We get so many people post in here about UOA that show moderately elevated levels, and then proclaim that it’s “good they got all that metal out of there”.
I agree. On a new car, early UOAs are more about showing that the engine is healthy than you have damaging particles in there.
I still agree. That was my point a UOA being too narrow of a view. It's missing everything bigger than what ... 10µm? I could measure the stuff in my filter with a ruler.
That is true and could be a valid reason to change initial fill. But after that first 1k mile change or so, doing multiple changes up to 10k is kind of ridiculous to me. But I understand why someone may want to do that.
Much less than that, more like 1-3 microns. User edhackett has a couple of good posts on that, you can search for them. He discusses how it is actually the aerodynamic diameter and what that means as it is related to the density of the particles. Here is one of his several posts:
It makes me feel better because I see metal flakes in the used oil every time in the first 3000 miles. I am also eager to dump the factory fill 0w-16 and put in 0w-20 or 5w-30 depending on the season.
I do at least 3 oil changes in the first 2000 miles. If it’s a Toyota, it’s less than 100 bucks total and some of my time. Will it make a difference? Probably only to my psychology.
Oil analysis is almost useless in the first 7500 to 10000 miles. The engine is breaking in.
I do at least 3 oil changes in the first 2000 miles. If it’s a Toyota, it’s less than 100 bucks total and some of my time. Will it make a difference? Probably only to my psychology.
Oil analysis is almost useless in the first 7500 to 10000 miles. The engine is breaking in.
My opinion is your 342,500 miles are pretty realistically hard to argue with.
Patman
Staff member
Except for the fact that he likely could have gotten there just the same with 10k intervals
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Way back in 1988 my then girl friend purchased a new 1988 Suzuki Samurai and I decided to do a early break-in oil change, I had a brand new never used yellow drain pan and her drained used oil was still clear with only a 100 or so miles. Don't know if it was a mix of a yellow pan ( everyone always uses black ) or being outside on a bright sunny day with still clear oil but I still can't believe what my eyes was seeing, lots and lots of small and LARGE metal flakes shining in the sun! looked like fool's gold sparkling in a mountain stream!
To this day I have never seen used oil with such large amounts of metal flakes! I was not much more than a kid back then but that has always stayed with me, that image burned in my memory from 37 years ago! That has played a part in how and when I choose to change my oil!
I do early oil changes for most things from a lawn mower after the first grass cut to all my cars and trucks. I can't unsee what looked like gold flakes in my oil pan!
Most cars I try and do the first one at 100 to 300 miles with the longest being a new Ram Cummins diesel ( I did the 1st at 4K miles ) going that long did bother me but its a diesel and i'm not as young as I once was and that was a hard one to do oil and that truck may do 500+K miles no matter what I do or don't do with oil!
However my most excessive oil changes was with my then new 2023 Harley Street Glide motorcycle.
I changed the factory oil & filter myself at exactly 100 miles to Bel-Ray V-Twin 20-50 MINERAL ( Non Synthetic oil ) I did notice less top end noise with that 100 mile oil change than factory fill.
I operated the bike per book break-in procedure such as no steady speed and keeping the rpms down below a specific rpm, all proper as per the book guideline to 500 miles and then I did a 2nd oil change myself at 500 miles with the again Bel-Ray Mineral and then at 1,000 mile ( The Normal 1st per the book dealer service ) I had the dealer do that 1st 1K service with my supplied Bel-Ray fluids, oil, primary and trans fluids but this time I changed the engine oil to Bel-Ray Semi-Synthetic. ( I have found a Harley engine in general especially my older Harley has less top end noise with conventional non synthetic oil but on my new modern bike I did change to Semi-Synthetic with great results as the top end is smooth as butter but after break-in at 1K miles.
I did all three fluids again at 1,500 miles and the engine oil & filter only again today at 3,500 miles... Yes a bit excessive but I did similar 28 years ago on my then new Harley thats still in my garage and is better than new!
Now that things are fully broken in on my new Harley I will most likely do what I try to do to my old bike that I have had 28 years! I like to do all the fluids at a minimum 1x per year and the oil Spring and Fall so 2x a year!
Now in 2025 on my modern cars and trucks I try to do after break-in Trans fluids etc per book but a max of 5K miles on a oil change.
I will and do run Synthetics in modern cars and trucks but anything air cooled, lawn mowers to my old Harley only mineral! I tried Mobil 1 V-twin in my old Harley one time many years ago, got a tic, tic, tic, so I dumped the oil back out that same day less than 20 miles and went back to mineral and never heard a tic again!
No, I no longer see those metal flakes in my oil but I will always remember 1988!
Do my excessive break-in fluid changes do anything ? Perhaps not but I got some ACD I guess and i'm to old to change my ways now!
And like many on this oil forum I must have some Hank Hill in me...
To this day I have never seen used oil with such large amounts of metal flakes! I was not much more than a kid back then but that has always stayed with me, that image burned in my memory from 37 years ago! That has played a part in how and when I choose to change my oil!
I do early oil changes for most things from a lawn mower after the first grass cut to all my cars and trucks. I can't unsee what looked like gold flakes in my oil pan!
Most cars I try and do the first one at 100 to 300 miles with the longest being a new Ram Cummins diesel ( I did the 1st at 4K miles ) going that long did bother me but its a diesel and i'm not as young as I once was and that was a hard one to do oil and that truck may do 500+K miles no matter what I do or don't do with oil!
However my most excessive oil changes was with my then new 2023 Harley Street Glide motorcycle.
I changed the factory oil & filter myself at exactly 100 miles to Bel-Ray V-Twin 20-50 MINERAL ( Non Synthetic oil ) I did notice less top end noise with that 100 mile oil change than factory fill.
I operated the bike per book break-in procedure such as no steady speed and keeping the rpms down below a specific rpm, all proper as per the book guideline to 500 miles and then I did a 2nd oil change myself at 500 miles with the again Bel-Ray Mineral and then at 1,000 mile ( The Normal 1st per the book dealer service ) I had the dealer do that 1st 1K service with my supplied Bel-Ray fluids, oil, primary and trans fluids but this time I changed the engine oil to Bel-Ray Semi-Synthetic. ( I have found a Harley engine in general especially my older Harley has less top end noise with conventional non synthetic oil but on my new modern bike I did change to Semi-Synthetic with great results as the top end is smooth as butter but after break-in at 1K miles.
I did all three fluids again at 1,500 miles and the engine oil & filter only again today at 3,500 miles... Yes a bit excessive but I did similar 28 years ago on my then new Harley thats still in my garage and is better than new!
Now that things are fully broken in on my new Harley I will most likely do what I try to do to my old bike that I have had 28 years! I like to do all the fluids at a minimum 1x per year and the oil Spring and Fall so 2x a year!
Now in 2025 on my modern cars and trucks I try to do after break-in Trans fluids etc per book but a max of 5K miles on a oil change.
I will and do run Synthetics in modern cars and trucks but anything air cooled, lawn mowers to my old Harley only mineral! I tried Mobil 1 V-twin in my old Harley one time many years ago, got a tic, tic, tic, so I dumped the oil back out that same day less than 20 miles and went back to mineral and never heard a tic again!
No, I no longer see those metal flakes in my oil but I will always remember 1988!
Do my excessive break-in fluid changes do anything ? Perhaps not but I got some ACD I guess and i'm to old to change my ways now!
And like many on this oil forum I must have some Hank Hill in me...
"Yep, I change my oil every 3000 miles or when I get bored, whichever comes first" Hank Hill, King of the Hill .
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Except for the FACT that the particular engine my car has is notorious for eating the valve cam. Why is my valve cam still healthy? I will stick with doing it all wrong.