I can smell one of these old polluters a block away. All in all, I'm basically in support of emission controls. Remember the smog from those good old days?
Is anyone bothered by complexity?
- Thread starter LarryL
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For me, the argument is not about complexity. Instead, the argument is with dependability. With my recent auto purchase, I wanted a manual transmission (not available), maual window (not abailable) no DVD (not possible), and manual sliding doors (had to get at least one "automatic" door). The list is longer, but I will stop there.
Yesterday, I was visiting the DC area and the automatic door would not close. I spend an hour trying to get the thing to work. I decided to unhook the cables and to turn the automatic door into a manually operated door. However, an alarm was convinced that the door was still open. Five hours of beeping can be annoying.
I think that marketing to laziness and lack of expertise or skills will continue to produce products that are more complicated.
Yesterday, I was visiting the DC area and the automatic door would not close. I spend an hour trying to get the thing to work. I decided to unhook the cables and to turn the automatic door into a manually operated door. However, an alarm was convinced that the door was still open. Five hours of beeping can be annoying.
I think that marketing to laziness and lack of expertise or skills will continue to produce products that are more complicated.
It is hard to beat up the auto companies for giving the masses what they want. Doen't mean I am happy about all this. Wonder how many cars are junked when the electric windows pack up>
Kestas
Staff member
For discussion, if my 71 Cutlass could be built brand new again, I'm convinced my 16 mpg Cutlass would be considerably cheaper to own and operate through 170,000 miles of service than any modern 27 mpg vehicle, simply because of the complexity and cost of diagnosis and repair of problems. Any money saved with increased fuel efficiency goes right out the window come repair time.
I spend a lot of time fixing my 95 Mercedes with 72K. Nearly all repairs are done to features and equipment that did not exist on cars 15 years ago. It kind of ruins the "driving experience".
[ August 28, 2006, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Kestas ]
I spend a lot of time fixing my 95 Mercedes with 72K. Nearly all repairs are done to features and equipment that did not exist on cars 15 years ago. It kind of ruins the "driving experience".
[ August 28, 2006, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Kestas ]
I would like a 1949 Ford pickup with an inline six flathead engine. How's that for simplicity? However, I would like a sincromesh transmission bolted onto it.
Who needs to do complete testing of the entire device? Some understanding of how the system works IS required in order to determine where the problem most likely lies based on the symptoms exhibited.
Otherwise, it'll be like these people whose idea of troubleshooting is to just start replacing parts till it works.
Incidentally, one thing that sucks about older cars is that none, and I mean NONE, of the electrical connections are waterproof.
I just looked at the taillight wiring for a 1982 Datsun pickup. There's a 5-way connector which connects the taillight assembly to the wiring harness, and Datsun's "solution" to waterproof it was to put a rubber sleeve around it--which, judging by the corrosion on the terminals, is pretty useless. They didn't even bother with any sort of terminal grease, either. (Or maybe someone cleaned it off...). Any water that gets on the wires can enter the connector quite easily.
Then, they grounded the taillights to the frame and the ground was bad (which was the cause of the problem I was looking at). It too, wasn't waterproofed at all.
I just looked at the taillight wiring for a 1982 Datsun pickup. There's a 5-way connector which connects the taillight assembly to the wiring harness, and Datsun's "solution" to waterproof it was to put a rubber sleeve around it--which, judging by the corrosion on the terminals, is pretty useless. They didn't even bother with any sort of terminal grease, either. (Or maybe someone cleaned it off...). Any water that gets on the wires can enter the connector quite easily.
Then, they grounded the taillights to the frame and the ground was bad (which was the cause of the problem I was looking at). It too, wasn't waterproofed at all.
Kestas
Staff member
Brian, the problem is finding people proficient enough to perform good diagnostics. Most of us either don't have the proper tools, can't invest the time to learn (only to have to relearn on the next model), or can't find competent mechanics with diagnostic abilities.
Like I tell other people, keeping some cars alive past warranty can be like keeping the space shuttle flying... you spend more time fixing the car than driving it.
Like I tell other people, keeping some cars alive past warranty can be like keeping the space shuttle flying... you spend more time fixing the car than driving it.
I know, it's really a shame--and it's not just applicable to cars, either.
I have a few ATX power supplies marked "BAD" that are actually good. And it's also been stated that some significant percentage of returned-as-bad computer components are actually GOOD.
As far as proper tools, the most important tool for troubleshooting is the one between your ears.
I have a few ATX power supplies marked "BAD" that are actually good. And it's also been stated that some significant percentage of returned-as-bad computer components are actually GOOD.
As far as proper tools, the most important tool for troubleshooting is the one between your ears.
One thing I like about manual windows - the ability to roll up/down with out having to plug that darned key back in...
I was fortunate to find a 2004 Sunfire with manual seats, windows, etc...
As for dealerships - it isn't worth it. Go to an independent shop - you'll get better treatment (might actually make a friend with the mechanic), your car will be FIXED when you leave, and you'll pay half the price if not less. At least this is my experience.
As for dealerships - it isn't worth it. Go to an independent shop - you'll get better treatment (might actually make a friend with the mechanic), your car will be FIXED when you leave, and you'll pay half the price if not less. At least this is my experience.
Is there a web space where we can get educated about the feasability of new nuclear energy plants? I am thinking that these may provide the electrical power to make fuel or charge batteries for cars in the future.
Last year I bought a '78 Ford Fairmont wagon. A simple, basic car that I've put 20k on and intend to keep because it suits my particular purposes. It's in too good a shape to be called a beater.
Sure, I spent some money fixing it up, but at least it's cheap to repair and maintain.
Talk about simple, I replaced the heater core in about 20 minutes, and if I ever have to do it again it would take about 10.
No computer, no power brakes even. The important thing about the simplicity of it was that I can do most of the work myself, by the side of the road, if I have to. I can't afford to be stuck 200 miles from home because an O2 sensor died.
Had the entire suspension rebuilt for about $1200.
No cruise, no AC, no FM radio. And when you open the hood there's a straight six engine there, rather than a mess of hoses.
All the emissions stuff is gone. Runs like a top.
Rust is the enemy, but I can restore and customize this car for far less than the cost of another car. You pay for those complex conveniences.
Sure, I spent some money fixing it up, but at least it's cheap to repair and maintain.
Talk about simple, I replaced the heater core in about 20 minutes, and if I ever have to do it again it would take about 10.
No computer, no power brakes even. The important thing about the simplicity of it was that I can do most of the work myself, by the side of the road, if I have to. I can't afford to be stuck 200 miles from home because an O2 sensor died.
Had the entire suspension rebuilt for about $1200.
No cruise, no AC, no FM radio. And when you open the hood there's a straight six engine there, rather than a mess of hoses.
All the emissions stuff is gone. Runs like a top.
Rust is the enemy, but I can restore and customize this car for far less than the cost of another car. You pay for those complex conveniences.
I remember back in the late 70s when the old geezers were crying in their beer about how complicated cars had become. It's all relative.
Those old 6 cyl Fairmonts were nice. I had one for a couple of weeks as rental car when I was making runs back and forth between work and a remote job site on the other side of the Sierra Nevadas. It was an underpowered 200 cubic inch 6 with automatic, but was one of the most neutral cornering cars I had driven. It was real kick to drive in the mountains. I always picked the twistier roads over the mountains in that car.
That won't happen. O2 sensors are not critical to the running of the engine, only for emissions.
In an effort to simplify MY automotive needs for a second vehicle to haul light loads and do general beat up chores and some commuter duties, I got a 1977 Chevy truck short bed, 350 V8 with an automatic.
The 96 truck I got rid of (and replaced with the 77) was constantly in need of service with the check engine light coming on, hydraulic clutch needing service, tbi injectors clogging, plastic pieces/knobs breaking, plastic radiator tanks breaking, plastic door handles breaking, in tank fuel pump quitting, and on and on. It got about 15 mpg when running well. I sold it for $2700.
I bought the 77 for $700. It gets about 16 mpg. I can drive over 10,000 miles on the $2000 difference in the price alone, with $3 dollar gas. But the simplicity of it comes in the fact that I can fix almost everything on it. Sure it has a carb, but it is relatively easy to keep in tune if a person has a little knowledge. It also has the HEI ignition which has no points or condensers to change/gap etc. I can also add iridium or platinum plugs to it if needed, as I can see all 8 spark plug boots. I think I could only see one or two spark plug boots on the 97. Manual windows and locks, so no problems there. AC, heat, defrost is all I need. The old radio also plays, even with the antenna inside the windshield. The 3 speed trans is relatively simple, and there are about 60 million replacements out in the market if I need one. This is about as simple as I can get, to do the light chores I require from a truck.
For MY needs I could have kept the 97 and continued to spend $1250 a year on maintenance. Bought a new truck for $17000-$22000, or do what I did and bought the 77 and fix it myself when needed. As a second vehicle, it fits my needs perfectly. I also have a comforting feeling driving this truck. Sorta like communing with an old friend or an older relative. I tend to take the drive more seriously, and drive slower/easier. It works for me.
The 96 truck I got rid of (and replaced with the 77) was constantly in need of service with the check engine light coming on, hydraulic clutch needing service, tbi injectors clogging, plastic pieces/knobs breaking, plastic radiator tanks breaking, plastic door handles breaking, in tank fuel pump quitting, and on and on. It got about 15 mpg when running well. I sold it for $2700.
I bought the 77 for $700. It gets about 16 mpg. I can drive over 10,000 miles on the $2000 difference in the price alone, with $3 dollar gas. But the simplicity of it comes in the fact that I can fix almost everything on it. Sure it has a carb, but it is relatively easy to keep in tune if a person has a little knowledge. It also has the HEI ignition which has no points or condensers to change/gap etc. I can also add iridium or platinum plugs to it if needed, as I can see all 8 spark plug boots. I think I could only see one or two spark plug boots on the 97. Manual windows and locks, so no problems there. AC, heat, defrost is all I need. The old radio also plays, even with the antenna inside the windshield. The 3 speed trans is relatively simple, and there are about 60 million replacements out in the market if I need one. This is about as simple as I can get, to do the light chores I require from a truck.
For MY needs I could have kept the 97 and continued to spend $1250 a year on maintenance. Bought a new truck for $17000-$22000, or do what I did and bought the 77 and fix it myself when needed. As a second vehicle, it fits my needs perfectly. I also have a comforting feeling driving this truck. Sorta like communing with an old friend or an older relative. I tend to take the drive more seriously, and drive slower/easier. It works for me.
I get sort of frustrated when they take control away from me with things like turning A/C on automatically. A little extra-curricular wiring fixes those problems though. I wouldn't buy a car with climate control if I couldn't switch it to an entirely manual mode though. Difficult access to routine maintenance items also frustrates me.
I can't complain too much; most of the complexity is necessary for emissions reasons. If the CEL is on, you don't have to worry about it anymore than you would a minor problem in a carb'd engine unless it's flashing or you have to pass an e-test.
I do like things like power locks and windows. Those are very simple circuits to work on and I like the convenience. I like to drive with both windows down and rolling the passenger window up and down manually every time I make a stop is a pain.
I can't complain too much; most of the complexity is necessary for emissions reasons. If the CEL is on, you don't have to worry about it anymore than you would a minor problem in a carb'd engine unless it's flashing or you have to pass an e-test.
I do like things like power locks and windows. Those are very simple circuits to work on and I like the convenience. I like to drive with both windows down and rolling the passenger window up and down manually every time I make a stop is a pain.
I've never called Toyota corporate but I have called Ford and Honda. Both times withing a week the dealers ended up falling all over themselves to make things right. It wasn't coincidence.
Don't forget there are whole departments and divisions of auto corps that develop gadgets and gizmos for vehicles and they are in the job of protecting their position in the company. Are they going to say "2007, nah- you don't need us".
I'm in agreement here that this original post is more of a dealer integrity issue than a vehicle complexity issue.
No evidence has been given that would indicate that the posters brother would have been "less molested" by the dealership if he drove an older model car with "less complex" operations.
I think your brother would be just as "clueless" no matter what he drives.
No offense intended, but I just think your anger should be directed elsewhere.
Personally, I happen to enjoy the ease of which I can operate my homely 96 Taurus.
I basically turn the key and go. If it doesn't go, the "mean-spirited" computer would normally give me some indication as to why. Either by triggering the low fuel indicator light, or by triggering the CEL. At either rate, I immediately have a starting point from which to proceed.
With a simpler, "less complex" vehicle, all I would know is that my car wasn't starting. From there, Id have to start manually figuring out what was going wrong.
Instead, with my "complex" vehicle, I can insure my car has gas in the tank, hook up an OBCD scanner and figure out whats wrong.
In my situation, Ill take the "complex" vehicle any day
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No evidence has been given that would indicate that the posters brother would have been "less molested" by the dealership if he drove an older model car with "less complex" operations.
I think your brother would be just as "clueless" no matter what he drives.
No offense intended, but I just think your anger should be directed elsewhere.
Personally, I happen to enjoy the ease of which I can operate my homely 96 Taurus.
I basically turn the key and go. If it doesn't go, the "mean-spirited" computer would normally give me some indication as to why. Either by triggering the low fuel indicator light, or by triggering the CEL. At either rate, I immediately have a starting point from which to proceed.
With a simpler, "less complex" vehicle, all I would know is that my car wasn't starting. From there, Id have to start manually figuring out what was going wrong.
Instead, with my "complex" vehicle, I can insure my car has gas in the tank, hook up an OBCD scanner and figure out whats wrong.
In my situation, Ill take the "complex" vehicle any day
I dont remember it at all if the car was maitained.
Put a modern FI system and O2 feedback on those and call it a day. My father has a 69 Road Runner 440+6. In Mass it is exempt from emissions testing but for the **** of it my brother had the car placed on the dyno to see what it would do during the anual isspection one year. It was not much worse then the new cars and considering it has no cats it shows you that the old cars werent much worse polluters if they were tuned. The money the feds make us waste on emissions equipment to placade California is sickening.
Put a modern FI system and O2 feedback on those and call it a day. My father has a 69 Road Runner 440+6. In Mass it is exempt from emissions testing but for the **** of it my brother had the car placed on the dyno to see what it would do during the anual isspection one year. It was not much worse then the new cars and considering it has no cats it shows you that the old cars werent much worse polluters if they were tuned. The money the feds make us waste on emissions equipment to placade California is sickening.
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