Day 10 of van still in shop for a power door that I never wanted in the first place!
Is anyone bothered by complexity?
- Thread starter LarryL
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They're either C or D NiMH batteries probably with solder tabs.
I don't care what is true/not true about batteries. I want a diesel, no hybrid, a vehicle about the size of an Escape, standard trans with a good spread of gears.
Batteries are working well now, because a hybrid keeps the battery charge in its sweet spot. That will be gone as soon as they start operating hybrids on more battery power than gas, and start things like charging the battery more at home then on the road. That change in operation will be the push made by legislators and tree huggers and it will kill the batteries while making them feel good about protecting you. It will come in the form of a switch on the dash, like they already do in other countries or in kits you can buy for your current gas/battery hybrids. The batteries won't have a chance. Tree huggers will run the batteries down completely, knowing that the evil nasty gas engine can take them home. Just wait until someone plugs a hybrid into the home grid with a dead-dead battery and something goes wrong. You will end up with an example of one of the laws of thermodynamics. You know, energy can be converted from one form to another, but the total amount of energy is always conserved. Or maybe it's the law about energy always moving from warm to cold.
Batteries are working well now, because a hybrid keeps the battery charge in its sweet spot. That will be gone as soon as they start operating hybrids on more battery power than gas, and start things like charging the battery more at home then on the road. That change in operation will be the push made by legislators and tree huggers and it will kill the batteries while making them feel good about protecting you. It will come in the form of a switch on the dash, like they already do in other countries or in kits you can buy for your current gas/battery hybrids. The batteries won't have a chance. Tree huggers will run the batteries down completely, knowing that the evil nasty gas engine can take them home. Just wait until someone plugs a hybrid into the home grid with a dead-dead battery and something goes wrong. You will end up with an example of one of the laws of thermodynamics. You know, energy can be converted from one form to another, but the total amount of energy is always conserved. Or maybe it's the law about energy always moving from warm to cold.
I'm a little more optimistic about such things. First, I don't see the "tree huggers" pushing the cars in this direction. It's simply not rational to do so even from an extreme tree hugger perspective. Why ruin your battery, have to purchase a new one (which of course would have to be made) and creat a heap of junk that would have to be recycled.
The EV switch to which you refer, is often discussed in the Prius forums. We understand it and it's function, but many people have bought into the myths about it. It's really only good for moving the car short distances at very low speeds. Toyota installs it in Euro Prii, but not here (aftermarket vendors sell a couple variants).
This leads to the next myth of the hybrid -- the free lunch myth. It is true that the ECU in, for example, works to keep the battery array optimally charged. But it's not a "sweet spot", it's more like a "sweet range." The display actually shows you this window, which is roughly 40-80% SOC (state of charge). Above and below, you don't see, and the charge doesn't go there.
And going there would be pointless. An electric-only run from 80 to 40% SOC (which can be induced with correct driving style, typically steady speed at or below 35 mph, flat land) will only last for between one and two miles tops. So even if you could cook the array up to 100% SOC, and then make an EV run all the way to zero, you might make it 3-5 miles. Why wreck your battery for that? I don't think that makes any sense.
Bigger batteries? Maybe, but then, at least in the case of the Prius, you'd eat up all your mid-sized room for the giant array. You do make a good point about what I'd call the misinformed temptation to over-use the batteries, though. What I've heard is that Toyota refused to install the EV only switch in US market Prii (and HSD Camrys and Highlanders) because of desire to preserve the array thhrough the long wty. Maybe my tree hugging credentials are lax, but I'm absolutely unwilling to kill my $2300 array to squeeze 1-2 more miles out of a charge. Car works fine as is; I've just managed my first 50 mpg tank of gas (not by driving slowly, but by driving it properly -- it's fun being rewarded tangibly for good technique).
Remember, in a hybrid, as opposed to a true pure electric vehicle, the traction battery is really just an energy buffer. It briefly absorbs coasting and braking energy that even a diesel wastes, every time it starts to slow down. That energy is very quickly "reused" on the next acceleration. The traction battery was never meant, and never will be meant, to be the primary store of energy to get you to your destination. That's still the gas tank.
The EV switch to which you refer, is often discussed in the Prius forums. We understand it and it's function, but many people have bought into the myths about it. It's really only good for moving the car short distances at very low speeds. Toyota installs it in Euro Prii, but not here (aftermarket vendors sell a couple variants).
This leads to the next myth of the hybrid -- the free lunch myth. It is true that the ECU in, for example, works to keep the battery array optimally charged. But it's not a "sweet spot", it's more like a "sweet range." The display actually shows you this window, which is roughly 40-80% SOC (state of charge). Above and below, you don't see, and the charge doesn't go there.
And going there would be pointless. An electric-only run from 80 to 40% SOC (which can be induced with correct driving style, typically steady speed at or below 35 mph, flat land) will only last for between one and two miles tops. So even if you could cook the array up to 100% SOC, and then make an EV run all the way to zero, you might make it 3-5 miles. Why wreck your battery for that? I don't think that makes any sense.
Bigger batteries? Maybe, but then, at least in the case of the Prius, you'd eat up all your mid-sized room for the giant array. You do make a good point about what I'd call the misinformed temptation to over-use the batteries, though. What I've heard is that Toyota refused to install the EV only switch in US market Prii (and HSD Camrys and Highlanders) because of desire to preserve the array thhrough the long wty. Maybe my tree hugging credentials are lax, but I'm absolutely unwilling to kill my $2300 array to squeeze 1-2 more miles out of a charge. Car works fine as is; I've just managed my first 50 mpg tank of gas (not by driving slowly, but by driving it properly -- it's fun being rewarded tangibly for good technique).
Remember, in a hybrid, as opposed to a true pure electric vehicle, the traction battery is really just an energy buffer. It briefly absorbs coasting and braking energy that even a diesel wastes, every time it starts to slow down. That energy is very quickly "reused" on the next acceleration. The traction battery was never meant, and never will be meant, to be the primary store of energy to get you to your destination. That's still the gas tank.
The tree huggers never demand the counter productive? How many of you have sent a monitor to the land fill because it wouldn't wake up from energy saving mode?
Lab:
No human being is perfectly rational -- not one single one of us. There already are some people insisting on installing the aftermarket EV switch and then misusing it. The truly pig-headed and stupid, regardless of envrionmental outlook, will manage to damage their batteries (and many other things they've worked hard to buy). But I just don't see a lot of people, tree hugger or not, setting themselves up for a needless battery purchase to squeeze an extra couple miles from a charge.
No human being is perfectly rational -- not one single one of us. There already are some people insisting on installing the aftermarket EV switch and then misusing it. The truly pig-headed and stupid, regardless of envrionmental outlook, will manage to damage their batteries (and many other things they've worked hard to buy). But I just don't see a lot of people, tree hugger or not, setting themselves up for a needless battery purchase to squeeze an extra couple miles from a charge.
Agreed- all a hybrid does is allow the fuel engine to operate more efficiently. Gas motors are only energy efficient in a narrow RPM band, and the hybrid allows it to operate in that band more of that time. This allows two benefits- for the tiny hybrids, you can get your 60 MPG. But in your midsize and larger vehicles, you will be able to get big-engine power for small-engine gas consumption. Look at the Lexus RX SUV: 0-60 in 6.9 seconds, and you still get 31/27 MPG.
Hybrids are not a free lunch, but they do allow us to get the most out of the $3 a gallon we're paying for.
Freight train locomotives have been diesel-electric hybrids for 50 years, by the way, so the technology isn't exactly new.
To the guy who said he thought his 16 MPG Cutlass would be cheaper to run over 170,000 miles versus a 27 MPG newer "more complicated" car, the difference at $3 a gallon is almost $13,000 dollars. That'll buy a lot of maintenance, after the warranty expires.
How many of these problems are due to these cars being purchased used? Not many people sell good well-maintained cars...
(Off to change the brakes in my 93 Dodge Spirit!)
Hybrids are not a free lunch, but they do allow us to get the most out of the $3 a gallon we're paying for.
Freight train locomotives have been diesel-electric hybrids for 50 years, by the way, so the technology isn't exactly new.
To the guy who said he thought his 16 MPG Cutlass would be cheaper to run over 170,000 miles versus a 27 MPG newer "more complicated" car, the difference at $3 a gallon is almost $13,000 dollars. That'll buy a lot of maintenance, after the warranty expires.
How many of these problems are due to these cars being purchased used? Not many people sell good well-maintained cars...
(Off to change the brakes in my 93 Dodge Spirit!)
Complex systems that are well engineered and built are quite reliable. Fuel injection of any kind is far beyond the functional complexity of a carb, but out of all of the FI cars I have had, going back to my '81 Vanagon, I have never had any trouble with the fuel injection of any kind. Out of six cars we currently have, only my old MGB has a carb rather than FI. Carbs need rebuilding every so often, to clean the gunk and renew the gaskets and o-rings. FI seems to just keep on going. An FI engine starts with only a few revs hot or cold, while a carb, particularly as it ages, will require some fiddling. Nonsense like power seats or auto climate control I can do without. Ultra nonsense, like BMW's I-drive, should be banned. Functional improvements, like FI over carbs, are to be encouraged. Hybrids don't look like the future to me. If you want economy, keep the small lo-cal gas engine and ditch the heavy battery pack and electric motor.
Has anyone seen anything about BMW's idea to use exhaust gas heat to generate steam to provide some drive to the vehicle? The only energy advantage the current hybrids offer is regen braking. How about a system that would capture some of the waste heat energy all of the time?
Has anyone seen anything about BMW's idea to use exhaust gas heat to generate steam to provide some drive to the vehicle? The only energy advantage the current hybrids offer is regen braking. How about a system that would capture some of the waste heat energy all of the time?
"...out of all of the FI cars I have had, going back to my '81 Vanagon, I have never had any trouble with the fuel injection of any kind."
Our first fuel injection car had 3 injectors replaced at 200k miles. I should have replaced them at about 180k miles but the diagnostics didn't point them out, in fact the diagnostics suggested that they were ok. Instead it was check pretty much everything else and I ended up with the PCM and fuel injectors as possible culprits.
Our first fuel injection car had 3 injectors replaced at 200k miles. I should have replaced them at about 180k miles but the diagnostics didn't point them out, in fact the diagnostics suggested that they were ok. Instead it was check pretty much everything else and I ended up with the PCM and fuel injectors as possible culprits.
Ged:
I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but you're both self-contradictory, and incorrect on your facts.
First (in no particular order), it is false that "The only energy advantage the current hybrids offer is regen braking. They also regenerate while decelerating and descending inclines. In addition, any time that the ICE is running "steady state" and the ECU determines that it's efficient to do so, the "extra" current being generated is saved in the traction battery. All light accelerations (I’d estimate 40% throttle or less) are gas-only, unboosted by the MGs, with significant charge going to the array. And every single time you lift your foot off the gas, you’re needlessly throwing away energy that I get to use over the next time I step on the “gas”. It’s even worse if you go for the brakes. And you totally overlook the smaller secondary benefits, such as how it’s starting to look like Prius front brake pads will typically last in excess of 150-200k miles (as they see so little use, most “braking” is actually regen). They also perform other neat tricks like shutting the gas engine off when it's not needed (such as at stoplights, or in light cruising). I've only owned mine for ~six weeks, and I'm already disturbed by how my wife's car actually idles at a standstill. . .
Second, you confuse the "heavy battery pack" of the true electric vehicle with what you find in a hybrid. Since the true function of they hybrid's array is not "bulk" storage of electrical energy, as is the case in an EV, but rather, it's to "buffer" the energy you're presently wasting, the array can be relatively small and light. In a Prius-II, it's the size of a medium suitcase. Heavy motors??? The motor-generators (MGs) are integral with the "transmission", which is an ingenious planetary gear CVT (NOT the complex cone and belt thing you see in all other CVTs) that seamless blends the power inputs from the gas and electric sources. It has about 1/10th the moving parts of a modern automatic, and the whole thing weighs less than an AT for a comparable size car. So even with a battery present, the car still achieves 45-50 mpg real world (for me anyway). Whatever the weight penalties are, they're not hurting too bad.
Third, I want economy AND the utility of a mid-sized car. Why should I have to accept a tiny car with far less utility to get 45-50 mpg? As a result of its odd proportions and illusory shape, the Prius-II is routinely "mis-sized" by pontificators who've never been in one. In dimension and volume, this car is far closer to a Camry than it is a Corolla (roughly 90% of the interior volume of a Camry, for example). The cargo area holds 15.5 cubic feet, slightly more than the trunk of a Camry or Avalon. Despite the big old traction battery being stuffed down beneath there too.
Fourth, you contradict yourself by noting that, "Complex systems that are well engineered and built are quite reliable. (...snip...) Functional improvements, like FI over carbs, are to be encouraged"; and then turning right around and pushing just those characteristics in a hybrid as reasons to reject the hybrid car. The "Hybrid Synergy Drive" as the Toyota marketers like to call it, is arguably as much of a quantum functional leap over normal gas-only cars as FI was over the carb.
Finally, you turn again and get enthusiastic for “ BMW's idea to use exhaust gas heat to generate steam to provide some drive to the vehicle? The only energy advantage the current hybrids offer is regen braking. How about a system that would capture some of the waste heat energy all of the time? OK, well, Toyota right now, today, has a car you can buy for ~$23000 (if you can take a “stripper”) that is already partway there (the Prius-II recaptures waste heat by storing hot coolant each time you shut down, making the next start and warmup much shorter and more efficient). Where is that BMW system? How much will cars with it cost when it gets here? How much will the super high temp durable systems weigh? I’m throwing the “double standard” flag here. No thanks if it’s from Toyota, but a cool idea if on a BMW. Proof’s in the “puddin,” isn’t it? BMW is talking about how it’s looking at such a system. Toyota can sell you a Prius, HSD Camry, HSD Highlander, RX-450, or GS-450 today.
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