My Mom hates her CEL. I tell her it's a good thing because the mechanic can hook up and get a good idea of what to replace/fix. Without the OBD, he/she would have to diagnose by trial-n-error.
Is anyone bothered by complexity?
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I would not trade my current vehicles for one I had in the 80's with a computer controlled carburetor. IMHO cars from the 90's and this decade are much more reliable, unless you choose certain Euro models that also have $$ parts that cause my doctor to look for unnecessary treatments......
Complexity?
2 words (1 word and 2 letters?):
Citroen DS
2 words (1 word and 2 letters?):
Citroen DS
Kestas
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In a conversation with a Ford engineer back in '74 I learned that 95% of emissions were already reduced from the tailpipe. It's incredible how much money we've wasted as a nation to get the last 5% cleaned up.... especially when you look at all other polluting sources (i.e., lawn mowers). We can thank the unstoppable empire of the EPA, who don't know when to disband and call it a day when their work was done.
Thankfully, the Detroit Metro area wised up 10 years ago and got rid of tailpipe testing. A study showed that when we had tailpipe testing, it cost $2 billion for the whole affair and increased air quality by about 1%, which wasn't even statistically significant.
Agreed kestas
In Maine we have stringent safety inspection and the emissions is nil, they hook up the OBD and check for codes, if no codes your on your way. No need to waste time slapping on a Dyno when the car already knows if there is a problem.
In Maine we have stringent safety inspection and the emissions is nil, they hook up the OBD and check for codes, if no codes your on your way. No need to waste time slapping on a Dyno when the car already knows if there is a problem.
Virginia went to OBD-II fault code inspection for ODB-II vehicles. Only pre OBD-II vehicles get a dyno test.
The owner of a shop (which doesn't do emissions inspections) said he thought that it's unlikely those dynos would ever pay for themselves, especially now that only a very small percentage of cars are tested on them now.
The owner of a shop (which doesn't do emissions inspections) said he thought that it's unlikely those dynos would ever pay for themselves, especially now that only a very small percentage of cars are tested on them now.
Wow, alot of points to address here. But they all seem to me to point to the people involved, their attitudes, practices, etc. - not the cars.
Consumers/customers: careless, ignorant, lazy
Dealers/service providers: dishonest
Government (people!): wasteful, controlling
I believe the vast majority of consumers benefit greatly from today's advances (if you care to call it that) in automotive technology. They want creature comforts (whether they need them or not is noone else's right to judge) and don't care to get their hands dirty. They view automotive service as just another bill to be paid, and budget accordingly (in most cases). The new cars are far easier to drive and safer. What's the big deal?
OTOH, I personally drive nothing newer than '91 model, because that is what I like and I like to do my own work. I could easily afford more expensive, newer vehicles like the one I bought for my wife, a 2002. We're both happy with this arrangement. I really don't see an issue here.
Consumers/customers: careless, ignorant, lazy
Dealers/service providers: dishonest
Government (people!): wasteful, controlling
I believe the vast majority of consumers benefit greatly from today's advances (if you care to call it that) in automotive technology. They want creature comforts (whether they need them or not is noone else's right to judge) and don't care to get their hands dirty. They view automotive service as just another bill to be paid, and budget accordingly (in most cases). The new cars are far easier to drive and safer. What's the big deal?
OTOH, I personally drive nothing newer than '91 model, because that is what I like and I like to do my own work. I could easily afford more expensive, newer vehicles like the one I bought for my wife, a 2002. We're both happy with this arrangement. I really don't see an issue here.
The issue is that if you want simple transportation (instead of bells and whistles on wheels), then the number of choices is dwindling quickly.
That is where the "vast majority" part comes in. The market is not going to cater to the one out of 1,000 potential customers who wants a simple, manually operated car. It just don't work that way - simple economics.
So "our" (and I use that term loosely, lest I get unmercilessly flamed) only choice is to salvage what we can now, and start stocking up on parts:
'70 Chrysler (has the remains of a junked predecessor stuffed in every nook and cranny)
'74 Plymouth (literally rebuilt from scratch with NOS, new and fabricated parts over the past year.)
'91 Dodge truck (like new, paid dearly for it and will baby it from here on out)
That's how I deal with it...
So "our" (and I use that term loosely, lest I get unmercilessly flamed) only choice is to salvage what we can now, and start stocking up on parts:
'70 Chrysler (has the remains of a junked predecessor stuffed in every nook and cranny)
'74 Plymouth (literally rebuilt from scratch with NOS, new and fabricated parts over the past year.)
'91 Dodge truck (like new, paid dearly for it and will baby it from here on out)
That's how I deal with it...
I think there is a small but real market for cars without a lot of bells and whistles. Whether the market is big enough to justify car companies building cars for that market is another question.
I seriously doubt a simple car will ever make it onto the market. People including myself have no interest.
My last car(1995 Honda) with 16 valves, VTEC(variable valve timing), AC, manual transmission, full power windows/locks/sunroof, 35MPG, and cd changer never had a single engine or power equipment failure in my 10 year ownership/225,000 miles. The only repair performed was a clutch master and radiator. I attribute these more as wear items more than failures.
Modern cars are very reliable if taken care of properly. Personally I think they are more reliable than cars of yesteryear.
My last car(1995 Honda) with 16 valves, VTEC(variable valve timing), AC, manual transmission, full power windows/locks/sunroof, 35MPG, and cd changer never had a single engine or power equipment failure in my 10 year ownership/225,000 miles. The only repair performed was a clutch master and radiator. I attribute these more as wear items more than failures.
Modern cars are very reliable if taken care of properly. Personally I think they are more reliable than cars of yesteryear.
thats what i like about my vw diesel. its incredibly simple. the engine will actually run off of 1 single power wire. and assuming worst case scenario, like a dead battery or dead alternator, the engine will run for a good while off of a 9 volt battery as long as someone is willing to give me a tow so i can pop the clutch to start the engine.
its ultra simple, and very reliale. theres no computers, no emissions equipment, and it runs off of anything from diesel to cooking oil and even motor oil so fuel shortages are of no concern. every part on the car is user servicable with the sole exception of the injection pump, of which i have 3 extra spares.
and theres enough of these cars in the junkyard so that i dont need to buy new parts too often, but as reliable as it is, i dont go to the junkyard very much either.
its ultra simple, and very reliale. theres no computers, no emissions equipment, and it runs off of anything from diesel to cooking oil and even motor oil so fuel shortages are of no concern. every part on the car is user servicable with the sole exception of the injection pump, of which i have 3 extra spares.
and theres enough of these cars in the junkyard so that i dont need to buy new parts too often, but as reliable as it is, i dont go to the junkyard very much either.
I disagree.quote:
Originally posted by OriginHacker21:
One thing I like about manual windows - the ability to roll up/down with out having to plug that darned key back in...I was fortunate to find a 2004 Sunfire with manual seats, windows, etc...
As for dealerships - it isn't worth it. Go to an independent shop - you'll get better treatment (might actually make a friend with the mechanic), your car will be FIXED when you leave, and you'll pay half the price if not less. At least this is my experience.
Dealerships are worth it. If you ask for the exact services you need (i.e. transmission fluid change, oil change, etc) and avoid the "bundled packages," prices are often comparable if not better than independent shops.
If people understood how to "use" dealerships to their advantage, they can get good deals on services performed using the correct parts. The bogus "inspect this" and "inspect that" is where a large portion of the cost comes from, and is completely unneeded. Trust me, if there is a part that is obviously broken, they want to charge you to fix it anyway, and won't hesitate to point it out. Most dealerships include a free basic inspection with any service.
As for independent shops, as an example, many shops do not install the correct parts into vehicles. Antifreeze as an example. Pep Boys, unless specifically requested, will install Silicated antifreeze into Hondas as the color is green. They won't install the extended life Prestone product unless specifically requested. And for transmission fluid, many of them will charge you ridiculous amounts to buy the correct fluid from the dealership or not even install the right fluid and/or not understand the importance of it.
Same goes for part quality. My mechanic used the CHEAPEST AutoZone brake pads on my mom's car. Skipped the anti-squeal compound too.
Lastly, building a good relationship with a dealership service advisor may be priceless to some who own the more expensive, trouble prone vehicles. Many can attest the benefit of regular business to a dealership; they have better experiences with dealership/manufacturer granting "goodwill" warranty even once the basic manufacturer's warranty had expired. Honda transmissions are a good example of this.
Ultimately, the consumer has to be well educated about what their vehicle really needs, and to understand how dealerships work. If they know exactly what work/services to request at a dealership, they can come away with services performed using good quality parts at equal or lesser cost to independent shops.
Yeah I get tired off all the gizmo's on my wife's Escape. It has the power windows, locks, moonroof you name. That's partly why I own my Ranger. Plain jane as it can get only options are ac and cloth seats. My old F150 Lariat had everything and well a person really doesn't need all of it.
I agree. Don't blame the truck, blame the shady dealer.
I like having EFI, coil packs, a sealed chassis, emissions controls and a vehicle that can determine if it has a problem on its own. I do not like having to shift a billion times in a traffic jam, and I also would like to be able to roll down my passenger side window without leaning over the seat. My next truck will have an automatic and power windows/locks. I do admit that when the conditions are right the manual is fun, and the manual windows and locks will probably never break, but the convienence of automatics and some power features are nice.
I do think people should learn to drive with a manual transmission and in a vehicle without reverse sensors or anything like that. Not having and automatic or reverse aids forces a person to pay more attention.
And I do take issue with one modern feature - power sliding doors on minivans. I guess I have been programmed to close the door manually and the power doors don't really let you.
I'm glad to have the simplest, least-expensive-when-new Mercedes made in the last few years.
The '97 C230 is a 4-cylinder with EFI, of course, but it does not have the Flexible Service System and does not require synthetic oil. The 5-speed auto transmission is supposed to be fill-for -life, but I'll have it flushed by the dealer eventually anyway. It has power windows, but I like those because I can roll the windows down, drive for a few minutes and blow out some of the accumulated heat, and then roll them right back up again while driving. And it has a remote trunk release and a moonroof, neither of which I care about.
No auto-dimming mirrors or telescoping wheel, no door-closing assists, only one power seat (mine), hard-wearing vinyl upholstery instead of leather, no tire pressure sensors. Just a good, solid little car.
I like the safety features and reliability of today's cars. Just not all the gadgets and gee-whiz items.
The '97 C230 is a 4-cylinder with EFI, of course, but it does not have the Flexible Service System and does not require synthetic oil. The 5-speed auto transmission is supposed to be fill-for -life, but I'll have it flushed by the dealer eventually anyway. It has power windows, but I like those because I can roll the windows down, drive for a few minutes and blow out some of the accumulated heat, and then roll them right back up again while driving. And it has a remote trunk release and a moonroof, neither of which I care about.
No auto-dimming mirrors or telescoping wheel, no door-closing assists, only one power seat (mine), hard-wearing vinyl upholstery instead of leather, no tire pressure sensors. Just a good, solid little car.
I like the safety features and reliability of today's cars. Just not all the gadgets and gee-whiz items.
Day 5 of van still in shop for "automatic" door. This pulls a vacuum.
There are three major obstacles to car manufacturers building simpler cars.
1. The US market for simple, austere cars is a small percentage of the market.
2. Everyone has there own idea of what should or shouldn't be on a simple austere car, so that small market is very fractured.
3. There is less money in it for the manufacturers.
Easily changed with a cat convertor and simple TBI system.
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