I ran the gambit of technology in my cars. After experienceing the underhood dread, I decieded both that I liked my older cars better (case in point: 1986 Audi Coupe' GT getting 30+ mpg and still having most of the orginal parts) and decided my new 2006 cart would offer some degree of simplicity. I got the Acura RSX, which is bascilly an older Civic/Integra type car. Not too simple, but not too complex either. PS I disslike auto climate and even electronic ones, give me a twist knob for temp!!!
Is anyone bothered by complexity?
- Thread starter LarryL
- Start date
- Status
outersquare, the real issue is that my brother was a steady customer of that dealership and did everyting suggested, everything. Why should he have to know what's going on, if he follows their service plan. They charged him for things not done. The condition of his Tundra was terrible. They never replaced vacuum lines that failed , his pcv looked like the original and the battery looked like a fuzz factory. The zerk fittings have never been greased, but his brakes were brand new. His shocks were new but the bushings in the suspension were shot. We're talking a 5 year old vehicle with 100k miles. This is not an old worn out truck. Complexity is becomming a leak in customer's pocket books. The service writer I talked to knows nothing about Toyotas, except which model is which and how much the standard services cost. He does not know what it takes to change a cabin air filter and that it's under the dash. He belives that 10w30 gives twice the protection of 5w30 because it's twice as thick. He belives that without an additive package and power transmission flush you transmission will never last the life of the vehicle. This he told me, and my brother's Tundra has a manual transmission. And one of my brother's past bills has this service charged on it. We had a meeting with the service manager, with a stack of bills and we got a refund check for this and other services, that he finally agreed were 'mistakes' on the bill. I asked the service writer what viscosity (this is no joke) the coolant was and he is going to find me an answer. I'm not holding my breath because he is a salesman not a service person because everyone knows that coolant has the same viscosity as pixie dew drops. Complexity is becoming an excuse for at best bad service and at worst a scam that customers pay for every day.
The problem I see here has more to do with dealership being dishonest about the work performed, and lack of accountability in general, and has little to nil to do in relation to car complexity, period.
competent garagemen and/or shadetree mech shall be able to detect bushing wear, grease all the zerk fittings, etc.
The sad fact that your brother (a) lies his sole confidence into his "stealership" for prompt service and (b) his disinterest in how car works are what constitute the "scam" going on. Again, unless the vehicle is seriously flawed (engine/emission control module unexpected failures, etc.), otherwise, I do not see "complexity" as the main issue here, just common sense.
competent garagemen and/or shadetree mech shall be able to detect bushing wear, grease all the zerk fittings, etc.
The sad fact that your brother (a) lies his sole confidence into his "stealership" for prompt service and (b) his disinterest in how car works are what constitute the "scam" going on. Again, unless the vehicle is seriously flawed (engine/emission control module unexpected failures, etc.), otherwise, I do not see "complexity" as the main issue here, just common sense.
I don't agree with your argument either, LarryL. The stealership has systematically and opportunistically been committing the crime of theft against your brother, their loyal customer, but you think it's about cars' complexity? Those thieves would be stealing from him if he rode a bicycle.
LarryL,
Don't forget they are in business to make money....whether you need XYZ part/service or not. I'm sure the service writer's income is based on how well he can 'sell' parts & service.
Check out RipoffReport and you will see thousands of complaints about car dealerships/service.
Don't forget they are in business to make money....whether you need XYZ part/service or not. I'm sure the service writer's income is based on how well he can 'sell' parts & service.
Check out RipoffReport and you will see thousands of complaints about car dealerships/service.
Whenever I have a flat tire, I pull over to the side of the road and cry and call my girlfriend to come and fix it
My point is that my brother was confused about all the stuff going on with his truck and th ecomplexity made it easyer for them to take his money. They would charge him over a hundred dollars for a computer readout, then fix a problem that any mechanic would have found after a quick look under the hood. He was sold an oil additive because it would extend the life of his engine. He was sold a transmission additive to extend the life of his automatic transmission when it was 'power flushed'. He has a manual transmission. Thieft was the crime, complexity was vehicle of the crime.
If I were your brother I'd be collecting all the estimates and receipts and making a few calls to Toyota customer service.
The dealer may think that's a reasonable way to treat customers but I'll bet Toyota corporate doesn't...
The dealer may think that's a reasonable way to treat customers but I'll bet Toyota corporate doesn't...
Dealer service is to be avoided IMHO unless it's warranty work. Even then some stealers will take advantage by trying to charge you for work that should be part of the warranty repair. I have found that independent repair shops do better work at much more reasonable prices and are more pleasant to deal with.
Finally, instead of buying a code reader I suggest going to an auto parts store such as Advance Auto and using theirs free. They will print out the codes for you and then you can decide what to do.
Finally, instead of buying a code reader I suggest going to an auto parts store such as Advance Auto and using theirs free. They will print out the codes for you and then you can decide what to do.
Why does every car or so it seems have to have power windows, power door locks, pwr seats, etc. I long for the day that I can drive a truck or family car and not have those features. I think that is why muscle cars from the 60's are so very popular now. They had a engine and that was it. You actually drove the car, not it driving you.
I agree about all the power everything. I got stuck with electric windows on my 02 Cavalier. I hate them. It is so nice to be able to roll the windows up and down without the key. I threw the remote in a drawer and have never used it.
Before I bought my 92 Grand Am, I looked at a Torus SHO. They came with every stupid gadget known to man standard including a power moon roof. I suspect I was much happier with the Grand AM.
Before I bought my 92 Grand Am, I looked at a Torus SHO. They came with every stupid gadget known to man standard including a power moon roof. I suspect I was much happier with the Grand AM.
If you want the ULTIMATE simple yet modern high performance vehicle Google the ARIEL ATOM.
Faster than a new Porsche yet only about $35k.
All regular maintenance can be done without lifting the hood.
Faster than a new Porsche yet only about $35k.
All regular maintenance can be done without lifting the hood.
Now now, Larry, everyone knows Tundras need to have the Johnson rod and muffler bearings replaced every 5k miles or you risk serious engine malfunction. Is it the dealer's fault your brother doesn't know basic car maintenance?
The reason there are so many cheats in the auto repair industry is because it's easy and very profitable.
If you take your car in for a paint job, and they use the wrong color or "forget" to paint it, anyone can immediately tell they screwed up. But if I say I changed the oil, fuel filter, spark plugs, etc, it's not obvious. Many car owners wouldn't even know where to look to verify it. So a garage is a natural place for cheaters to gravitate towards.
The reason there are so many cheats in the auto repair industry is because it's easy and very profitable.
If you take your car in for a paint job, and they use the wrong color or "forget" to paint it, anyone can immediately tell they screwed up. But if I say I changed the oil, fuel filter, spark plugs, etc, it's not obvious. Many car owners wouldn't even know where to look to verify it. So a garage is a natural place for cheaters to gravitate towards.
http://www.****interesting.com/?p=14
Here is a pic of the simplest modern car.
No Doors
No Screen
No Roof
No a/c
No radio
No body
Just pure GO, powered by Honda.
Here is a pic of the simplest modern car.
No Doors
No Screen
No Roof
No a/c
No radio
No body
Just pure GO, powered by Honda.
"I didn't realize what a complex mess I had until I blew $130 on the factory shop manuals."
I wish mine were that cheap. I managed to find one of the two factory manuals needed for the Taurus from a coworker for $10, but the other one, the emmisions one needed for reading and troubleshooting codes and such, was about $200 from the dealer. Fortunately Alldata has a lot of good info available with their subscription, and I've been able to get by.
Reading codes on the older car takes about a 5 cent assembly of wire and connectors and reading the check engine light, but codes are just starters on what might be going on. I had a cold start problem and hesitation that didn't make sense as the sensors, cables, and 'key on engine running' tests all checked out, so I assumed it to be injectors or the PCM. I replaced three injectors based upon their uneven spray pattern in the intake, and it fixed the problem.
Automatics just add another layer of sensors, actuators, cables, and such to the ones on the engines these days, and while that doesn't matter much to people who replace their cars all the time it does to people who try to keep them running. A friend finally got rid of an 'ultra-reliable' Toyota Land Cruiser at about 100k miles as mileage dropped to around 10 mpg, and the dealer couldn't fix it after repeated attempts, so complexity bedevils everyone.
I wish mine were that cheap. I managed to find one of the two factory manuals needed for the Taurus from a coworker for $10, but the other one, the emmisions one needed for reading and troubleshooting codes and such, was about $200 from the dealer. Fortunately Alldata has a lot of good info available with their subscription, and I've been able to get by.
Reading codes on the older car takes about a 5 cent assembly of wire and connectors and reading the check engine light, but codes are just starters on what might be going on. I had a cold start problem and hesitation that didn't make sense as the sensors, cables, and 'key on engine running' tests all checked out, so I assumed it to be injectors or the PCM. I replaced three injectors based upon their uneven spray pattern in the intake, and it fixed the problem.
Automatics just add another layer of sensors, actuators, cables, and such to the ones on the engines these days, and while that doesn't matter much to people who replace their cars all the time it does to people who try to keep them running. A friend finally got rid of an 'ultra-reliable' Toyota Land Cruiser at about 100k miles as mileage dropped to around 10 mpg, and the dealer couldn't fix it after repeated attempts, so complexity bedevils everyone.
I remember these wise words from a Radio Shack electronics project kit instruction manual (I believe it was the 160-in-1):
"Even the most complex electronic circuit is nothing more than a combination of simple electronic circuits".
It applies to a lot of things besides electronic circuits.
"Even the most complex electronic circuit is nothing more than a combination of simple electronic circuits".
It applies to a lot of things besides electronic circuits.
"Even the most complex electronic circuit is nothing more than a combination of simple electronic circuits".
But add enough paths and it becomes almost impossible to do complete testing, at least for the time/cost that people are willing to pay, and troubleshooting becomes very difficult. Software is typically more difficult to test than electronics, and software content is growing by leaps and bounds.
But add enough paths and it becomes almost impossible to do complete testing, at least for the time/cost that people are willing to pay, and troubleshooting becomes very difficult. Software is typically more difficult to test than electronics, and software content is growing by leaps and bounds.
Who's the stealership, LarryL? We'll add them to our Black List.
American cars peaked in the middle 1960's for your argument, LarryL. A midsize car, with smallblock V8, AC (if down south) would run about forever. If we could bring it forward in time, add electronic ignition, radial tires, modern brake pads/shoes, gas-charged shocks and a GEAR VENDORS overdrive we'd have the problem covered.
I'd still upgrade the electrical system, but that's about it.
Oh, yeah, three-point shoulder belts, not the pair of belts each position had.
Here's a nice example of a 1967 DODGE Coronet Coupe:
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/339919
The Big Four automakers were still advancing in engineering terms (it came to about an end at this point), reliability was way up over the early 1960's, and many of the components developed then were in production until only a few years ago.
Nothing complicated. Needed good attention about once yearly per fluid changes/tune-up. A carb overhaul at about 50,000.
We could rustproof, use a stainless exhaust, etc, but that is primarily cosmetic.
Weight, size, ride, etc, were all to the good. It's been downhill since then.
I don't daydream about todays cars . . just the bucks to completely rebuild an old one (as I was doing until health went kaput). For the price of a very nice new car, I could commission a rebuild of an old car that would do another 30-40 years barring major accidents and fires/theft.
With a 318-V8 done properly, 22 mpg highway is not out of order. I was getting 17-19 out of my 383-V8 4,700-lb Chrysler. This car would come in about 1,000 lbs lighter.
When I think of all the fine old cars that were run into the ground . . the waste of capital, labor and resources to build new ones constantly makes no sense. We could have a few million older ones providing good service had we, as a society, elected to train young men/women to restore and maintain these cars. There is certainly no lack of folks who could use one.
I'd still upgrade the electrical system, but that's about it.
Oh, yeah, three-point shoulder belts, not the pair of belts each position had.
Here's a nice example of a 1967 DODGE Coronet Coupe:
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/339919
The Big Four automakers were still advancing in engineering terms (it came to about an end at this point), reliability was way up over the early 1960's, and many of the components developed then were in production until only a few years ago.
Nothing complicated. Needed good attention about once yearly per fluid changes/tune-up. A carb overhaul at about 50,000.
We could rustproof, use a stainless exhaust, etc, but that is primarily cosmetic.
Weight, size, ride, etc, were all to the good. It's been downhill since then.
I don't daydream about todays cars . . just the bucks to completely rebuild an old one (as I was doing until health went kaput). For the price of a very nice new car, I could commission a rebuild of an old car that would do another 30-40 years barring major accidents and fires/theft.
With a 318-V8 done properly, 22 mpg highway is not out of order. I was getting 17-19 out of my 383-V8 4,700-lb Chrysler. This car would come in about 1,000 lbs lighter.
When I think of all the fine old cars that were run into the ground . . the waste of capital, labor and resources to build new ones constantly makes no sense. We could have a few million older ones providing good service had we, as a society, elected to train young men/women to restore and maintain these cars. There is certainly no lack of folks who could use one.
- Status
