Is an Oil Analysis a waste of money??
- Thread starter Grossomotto
- Start date
- Status
A person I know runs a big floor covering sales and install business. Has a fleet of Ford and Dudge trucks for the crews and GM SUV's (Envoys) for the salesmen. They had a the engine go in one truck last winter. 50-60,000 miles. Reason given for the engine failure, coolant in the oil. The engine was all sludged up and just siezed up one cold morning. The installer whose truck it was had been adding coolant for about most of the winter. The engine was not covered by Ford warranty and it cost them over $5000 for the new engine (at Ford Dealer).
BTW-Not sure what oil was in use, the crew leaders keep the trucks and take care of them supposedly. According to Lee, this guy trashs every vehicle.
BTW-Not sure what oil was in use, the crew leaders keep the trucks and take care of them supposedly. According to Lee, this guy trashs every vehicle.
Hi,
well for some people a UOA may be a waste of money, for some its fun and for others it is serious stuff. I'm the latter - serious stuff!
I use it professionally to monitor engine "break in" and extended drain performance. It is all trended and computerised for easy access - for me
This sequence has been a part of my life for about 25-30 years
I do not think too much can be read into many of the UOAs shown on here. Especially individual UOAs as it is generally trending over a reasonable time/distance that tells the story.
( Spikes or abnormalities excepted of course ) Many people change their oil too soon, get quite paranoid about minor wear metal figures and other UOA result movements. They have no Manufacturer data points to access which makes an accurate analysis very dificult in the elemental area
And others "pontificate" over many other items that professional users would see as normal
But for many here it is fun and that is the greatness of this Board
If I was a car owner with a genuine intent to keep the vehicle for many years and say 300k I would do the following;
1 - use the UOAs to monitor break in and to establish a OCI
2 - then, take a UOA at 75% of the OCI interval and at the change point
3 - vary the OCI accordingly
Of course I would not chop and change oil brands and types either
But thats just my 2c worth
Regards
well for some people a UOA may be a waste of money, for some its fun and for others it is serious stuff. I'm the latter - serious stuff!
I use it professionally to monitor engine "break in" and extended drain performance. It is all trended and computerised for easy access - for me
This sequence has been a part of my life for about 25-30 years
I do not think too much can be read into many of the UOAs shown on here. Especially individual UOAs as it is generally trending over a reasonable time/distance that tells the story.
( Spikes or abnormalities excepted of course ) Many people change their oil too soon, get quite paranoid about minor wear metal figures and other UOA result movements. They have no Manufacturer data points to access which makes an accurate analysis very dificult in the elemental area
And others "pontificate" over many other items that professional users would see as normal
But for many here it is fun and that is the greatness of this Board
If I was a car owner with a genuine intent to keep the vehicle for many years and say 300k I would do the following;
1 - use the UOAs to monitor break in and to establish a OCI
2 - then, take a UOA at 75% of the OCI interval and at the change point
3 - vary the OCI accordingly
Of course I would not chop and change oil brands and types either
But thats just my 2c worth
Regards
Hi,
Well, I'll share my story...
First, I use Pennzoil (at .69-89 cents a quart) and Motorcraft Oil Filter for $2.77 for my oil changes. Less than $7 for the total for a oil change.
About a year ago, I had Terry do a UOA on my 1999 Ford Taurus that I just changed the oil. The car was coming up to being 3 years old and had 61k miles on it. (The orginal and ONLY warrenty is the factory 3yr/36k)
It came back with a *slight* coolant leak that had not done any damage that we could tell on the engine. I was not having to add any coolant and the car ran fine. Terry had me go check the coolant for oil and yep, we have a Head Gasket Leak.
Over $1100 later and 2 rebuilt heads the car was fixed.
I went to Ford and after a lot of Dancing, they covered 90% of the cost and the Rent-a-car.
How did I get them to cover most of the cost? I showed them that I take care of my cars, change the oil and if I was someone to thrash my car, why would I spend $25 for a UOA over the Less than $7 oil change.
The car (ANY BRAND) should not require heads to be rebuilt and gaskets at 61k intervals...
So, its more than a hobby in my world. I don't check every oil change now (I change every 3.5k-4.5k which is every month to 6 weeks) but still will get the UOA here and there. I think in my mind, I'd rather use a good oil and change it more often and spend the $$ saved on the oil on UOAs.. Then I get the protection and KNOW whats going on...
Oh.. Terry is the man!
Take care and thats my 3 cents!
Bill
Well, I'll share my story...
First, I use Pennzoil (at .69-89 cents a quart) and Motorcraft Oil Filter for $2.77 for my oil changes. Less than $7 for the total for a oil change.
About a year ago, I had Terry do a UOA on my 1999 Ford Taurus that I just changed the oil. The car was coming up to being 3 years old and had 61k miles on it. (The orginal and ONLY warrenty is the factory 3yr/36k)
It came back with a *slight* coolant leak that had not done any damage that we could tell on the engine. I was not having to add any coolant and the car ran fine. Terry had me go check the coolant for oil and yep, we have a Head Gasket Leak.
Over $1100 later and 2 rebuilt heads the car was fixed.
I went to Ford and after a lot of Dancing, they covered 90% of the cost and the Rent-a-car.
How did I get them to cover most of the cost? I showed them that I take care of my cars, change the oil and if I was someone to thrash my car, why would I spend $25 for a UOA over the Less than $7 oil change.
The car (ANY BRAND) should not require heads to be rebuilt and gaskets at 61k intervals...
So, its more than a hobby in my world. I don't check every oil change now (I change every 3.5k-4.5k which is every month to 6 weeks) but still will get the UOA here and there. I think in my mind, I'd rather use a good oil and change it more often and spend the $$ saved on the oil on UOAs.. Then I get the protection and KNOW whats going on...
Oh.. Terry is the man!
Take care and thats my 3 cents!
Bill
These are the people we should be thanking for providing us information.
Sure there's lots of different variables with most of these UOAs, but when 4 out of 5 different people have the same problem with the same oil, you can start to draw your own conculsions.
>>>To play the devils advocate. Anti freeze in oil, well, if you don't know you have a problem because you keep adding coolant every week then you have larger issues to deal with!
Already saw one report which reported detected problem. I know a couple of cases where coolant loss was extremely low, like a couple ounces every few months. Oil analysis showed coolant in the oil, and headgasket was replaced while still under warranty.
>>>Injector problems will also have other outward signs that you should recognize other trhen fuel contamination in a UOA!
Friend with Mack truck sampled every 20K. At couple hundred thousand, fuel dilution was detected by oil analysis. He had not noticed any other symptom. Mack dealer discovered one bad injector, replaced before any major damage.
>>>Abnormal wear, takes multiple UOA with a trend to determine this and in all probability there is absolutely nothing you can do about it and the engine will still last 100,000 plus miles.
Another friend, running 5 Ford diesel 15 passenger vans on commuter runs. Formerly did oil change monthly on 5 vans. After switching to AMSOIL, began oil analysis every 3 months. With bypass filters, average time for oil drain became 18 months. However, in one case, abnormal copper showed up in sample. Local shop couldn't help, but International expert figured out, based on his knowledge, that a bushing appeared to have abnormal wear. The two options were:
1. Have the bushings replaced, cost about $600 and a day in the shop (out of service)
2. Keep running, and the engine would self destruct. Replacement about $6K, several days in shop.
Dealer was able to order parts, van was scheduled in on Federal holiday. No revenue loss, abotu $600 repair bill. Savings more than made up for all the oil samples he had ever done!!
Granted, for the guy who runs one car, you could consider it a hobby. For fleet commercial use, it is what one could call a "no-brainer".
Already saw one report which reported detected problem. I know a couple of cases where coolant loss was extremely low, like a couple ounces every few months. Oil analysis showed coolant in the oil, and headgasket was replaced while still under warranty.
>>>Injector problems will also have other outward signs that you should recognize other trhen fuel contamination in a UOA!
Friend with Mack truck sampled every 20K. At couple hundred thousand, fuel dilution was detected by oil analysis. He had not noticed any other symptom. Mack dealer discovered one bad injector, replaced before any major damage.
>>>Abnormal wear, takes multiple UOA with a trend to determine this and in all probability there is absolutely nothing you can do about it and the engine will still last 100,000 plus miles.
Another friend, running 5 Ford diesel 15 passenger vans on commuter runs. Formerly did oil change monthly on 5 vans. After switching to AMSOIL, began oil analysis every 3 months. With bypass filters, average time for oil drain became 18 months. However, in one case, abnormal copper showed up in sample. Local shop couldn't help, but International expert figured out, based on his knowledge, that a bushing appeared to have abnormal wear. The two options were:
1. Have the bushings replaced, cost about $600 and a day in the shop (out of service)
2. Keep running, and the engine would self destruct. Replacement about $6K, several days in shop.
Dealer was able to order parts, van was scheduled in on Federal holiday. No revenue loss, abotu $600 repair bill. Savings more than made up for all the oil samples he had ever done!!
Granted, for the guy who runs one car, you could consider it a hobby. For fleet commercial use, it is what one could call a "no-brainer".
Well, I think my wifes car would have benifited from it. My wifes car has had an internal coolant leak. We do not know for how long. We have owned the used car for about a year. I never saw watter in the oil or foam on the dipstick. THe intake manifold started leaking coolant. It is hard to say how long this has been going on. If I had done UOA I might of spoted it before the symptoms were obvious. If not for the misfire, advice from some one here and the droping coolant level it would have continued.
When I drained the oil after repairing the vechile the oil was full of coolant! I can only imagine how much of a hit the bearings have taken!
When I drained the oil after repairing the vechile the oil was full of coolant! I can only imagine how much of a hit the bearings have taken!
I must admit that I felt a lot like Grossomotto regarding oil analysis at first. They were something new, interesting and fun, but also left me wondering if they were just an expensive hobby in the end. But after I started to apply what I learned from them, and other's uoa's, I came to look upon that expense as an investment. It gave me the data, insight, and confidence to justify extending the OCI's on the vehicles I own. Were it not for uoa's I'd still be changing my oil at 3K intervals and looking for that holy grail of oil based solely on manufacturer's data sheets and other people's anecdotal stories. For example, there is no way I would have believed that wear rates actually decline as oil ages. No way. Untill I ran the uoa numbers myself, that is.
I've found oil analysis to be a real learning experience.
I've found oil analysis to be a real learning experience.
Well, that sure does answer my question! Thanks for all the info. I actually may get one done. But, I'm such a wimp, I barely go over 3000 miles, even with Synthetic!
That is highly depends on YOU, the car owner instead of the service. In economics class they teach you pricing is based on what is it worth to the consumer, by how is it going to affect their alternative choice and opportunity cost.
If you are just keeping the car for a few years before you trade it in, there is no point really. If it is your dream car and you cannot afford to give it anything less than the best, it is a bargain. For the most of us it is in the middle.
I personally do it once every 3 years to check for glycol and any extreme wear. Shall that happen I knew exactly when to fix it, trade it in, or sell it. =P
If you are just keeping the car for a few years before you trade it in, there is no point really. If it is your dream car and you cannot afford to give it anything less than the best, it is a bargain. For the most of us it is in the middle.
I personally do it once every 3 years to check for glycol and any extreme wear. Shall that happen I knew exactly when to fix it, trade it in, or sell it. =P
Good points guys.
I think when I buy my used Ferrari, I'll get a UOA.
I think when I buy my used Ferrari, I'll get a UOA.
Well, once every three years, so you get a terrible UOA at the third year, I doubt you would unload that car then, you would have to do at least one more to confirm that the first was not a fluke etc. One UOA is almost (not entirely) useless. You must have 2-3 to get teh trend, especially is the vehicle is new.
You know, we spoke on several of these posts of coolant leaks. How's this, my Camry has used coolant for the last 3 years and only in the winter. Lead count has been high for 10 years, even before the coolant being burned, anywhere from 10-40 ppm in a 7500 OCI. So, in my case what has over a dozen UOA shown me, not sure other then lead is high (never a glycol or water contamination indicated, no sodium or potassium either)and at this point do I care, nope, engine has 162,000 miles, runs great and a new head gasket is simply nto worth the cost. In this case, UOA nice to have but did it predict anything when lead has been high the entire life and no other indicators of trouble. Go figure.
UOA are nice to have but they are not the God send in every case. Like everything it must be taken with a grain of salt.
[ January 30, 2004, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Spector ]
Nope. My car has a blown head gasket, but at 200,000 miles I figure it's better to just drive it until it's dead.
I personally think its a waste of money for the average driver. I've gotten on average about 200k on each of my vehicles by doing 5k oil changes with a quality synthetic oil and not worrying about wear rates/oil analsyis. I primarily drive Japanese cars with the exception of a Ford Taurus that was given as a X-mas gift to my wife, and don't have to worry about head gaskets leaking and other major maintenance problems that would show up on an oil analysis.
The amazing thing is non of my cars ever burned any oil between changes (I believe its all in the break in) and non ever needed any type of additive to clean the engine. Only additive I ever used was an occasional bottle of BG44k in the fuel tank to keep the injectors clean.
The amazing thing is non of my cars ever burned any oil between changes (I believe its all in the break in) and non ever needed any type of additive to clean the engine. Only additive I ever used was an occasional bottle of BG44k in the fuel tank to keep the injectors clean.
I got involved in this UOA stuff because my whole oil mentallity is changing since I purchased a new truck. I'm coming from dino to syn,3k changes to 1 year, and from Fram to expensive filtration. I'm also using Amsoil for the first time. My UOA's will tell me if this Amsoil Hype is for real.I'll do the UOA's for this year to satisfy myself that Amsoil is telling the truth, then I'll just follow their recommended schedule and sleep at night. I plan on being buried in this truck but I have always tried to run my vehicles for as long as I can with regular mte. It just makes economic sense to me. The oil nerd thing is fun and as for the money, I watch people spend hundreds on performance and appearance enhancements, now is that a waste of money?
- Status
Similar threads
