Interesting GM/Ford Story on CNBC

[Kiwi_ME]

Electric cars much less complex? I wouldn't say that myself. ...

Not only are EV drivetrains less complex but they are more modular at subassembly level than ICE. We already see that batteries are being replaced as entire assemblies, same applies to the motor, gearbox, on-board charger and inverter, the only other essential components. These are literally bolt in / plug in parts and DIY is entirely possible.
Repair or recycling of those subassemblies will be carried out by specialists, not by your dealer's service department, just like engine rebuilding has been for decades.

This may be so. But don’t forget the complexity of batteries themselves, like the serious issues with the LG batteries in the Chevy Bolt.

The "issues" were only serious in that they were dramatic when a failure occurred. That should not distract from the root cause, a simple manufacturing mistake by LG, hopefully never repeated. The biggest hurdle was for GM, Hyundai and LG to actually accept that this would cost them an arm and a leg to fix properly. Both tried software fixes first, which helped but were not 100% effective.

Even if they aren’t subject to sudden failure, every battery has a finite number of charge/discharge tolerate.

Sure, about 1200 full-charge-equivalent cycles down to 80% of the original capacity, which, when multiplied by the EVs range leaves you with a fairly long life.

 

[E365]

Here’s almost all the moving parts of the Bolt powertrain. Add a couple CV axles and some wheel bearings, and that’s about it. Maybe an oil/coolant pump too?

Photo from Weber Auto

I’ll take that over these ridiculous monstrosities any day.

Stock photos.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Do all electric car companies offer to install level two charging at no cost?
View attachment 97685

That cheap a.. Elon barely gave me a Mobile Connector Cable... I hear they are stopping that as well!
I paid a union electrician $600 all in to run 50' of copper #6 from a 50A breaker to a NEMA 14-50 in the garage.
Luckily I already upgraded our old panel to a 200A service years ago.

 

[alarmguy]

I’m sure it’s just a small perk but I thought it was kind of unique and neat.
Maybe more so because it just makes the EV purchase more simple for common people.
Though I doubt they would run 50 feet of cable for you!
I’m sure that would be in the fine print someplace.
For us in our attached garage it would be simple for them as the breaker box is out there as well.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I’m sure it’s just a small perk but I thought it was kind of unique and neat.
Maybe more so because it just makes the EV purchase more simple for common people.
Though I doubt they would run 50 feet of cable for you!
I’m sure that would be in the fine print someplace.
For us in our attached garage it would be simple for them as the breaker box is out there as well.

Make sure you have room in the service panel. And enough service.
This is what I tell perspective buyers. Charging can be expensive, especially if you have an older, say 70A service like my house was built with.

 

[alarmguy]

Make sure you have room in the service panel. And enough service.
This is what I tell perspective buyers. Charging can be expensive, especially if you have an older, say 70A service like my house was built with.

Ha! I knew I did, home was built in 2006 and knew I had a min of 200 amp which is was.
With that said, I also knew we have so many circuits that for some reason I thought all the slots were filled up, but your post got me wondering again, so rolled my tool box to the side and checked ... scratched my head on why I thought they were all filled up.
I then rationalized maybe because they are stacked from the bottom instead of the top. Now that I have this room, I may (or may not) do a whole house surge suppressor, most likely not, at one time it was a thought and for some reason I thought, all the slots were used.

 

[PimTac]

Ha! I knew I did, home was built in 2006 and knew I had a min of 200 amp which is was.
With that said, I also knew we have so many circuits that for some reason I thought all the slots were filled up, but your post got me wondering again, so rolled my tool box to the side and checked ... scratched my head on why I thought they were all filled up.
I then rationalized maybe because they are stacked from the bottom instead of the top. Now that I have this room, I may (or may not) do a while house surge suppressor, most likely not at one time it was a thought and for some reason I thought, all the slots were used.
View attachment 97755

Having empty slots is not indicative of extra service capacity. You will need someone to calculate your load and let you know.

 

[alarmguy]

Having empty slots is not indicative of extra service capacity. You will need someone to calculate your load and let you know.

Agree - Good point and I am sure one not thought a lot about from the public - Im capable to do that myself but already know Ill be ok. Bolt 10 hour charge is 32 Amps. I certainly would not want any less than 200 and wonder if this will be much of an issue nationally, I dont think so but many in older homes maybe.

Its nice to see I wouldnt need a sub panel for another line for an electric vehicle there is only a slim chance of owning in the coming decade but it is a possibly to replace my wife's Mazda maybe in 5 or 10 years as the car is just used locally and barely every goes anyplace.
By that time I would expect mainstream availability and pricing vs vehicles still in development and post covid shortages now.

Ill most likely add to my list a whole house surge now. (though I ALWAYS get myself into to many projects) Dont know why I thought otherwise, (unrelated) goes to show you we NEVER have an overloaded circuit that I have to re-set and how rarely I looked at the box..

You know, I look at all those breakers and the fact that we NEVER open the windows in our home, its either AC or heat... and think to myself how stupid cheap electric is in our part of SC. If you play the 3 hour peak usage time correctly which we do, other than that it is 5.2 cents a kWr.
Screw that up for 3 hour peak period and its $12 (dollars!) a kWr which is taken from the highest peak day of the month.

 

[Danh]

Here’s almost all the moving parts of the Bolt powertrain. Add a couple CV axles and some wheel bearings, and that’s about it. Maybe an oil/coolant pump too?

Photo from Weber Auto
View attachment 97699


I’ll take that over these ridiculous monstrosities any day.

Stock photos.
View attachment 97700

View attachment 97706

Well, okay. But gee, a 4 cylinder has half the parts. And I’ve never had a problem with the plastic cover over the intake manifold. Or the oil pan.

 

[Job]

Ha! I knew I did, home was built in 2006 and knew I had a min of 200 amp which is was.
With that said, I also knew we have so many circuits that for some reason I thought all the slots were filled up, but your post got me wondering again, so rolled my tool box to the side and checked ... scratched my head on why I thought they were all filled up.
I then rationalized maybe because they are stacked from the bottom instead of the top. Now that I have this room, I may (or may not) do a whole house surge suppressor, most likely not, at one time it was a thought and for some reason I thought, all the slots were used.
View attachment 97755

That’s a very nice higher end Eaton CH panel, lucky. Have an electrician evaluate, you have a lot going on but not all of that is on at the same time. I would bet no problem to add level 2 EV and at 5 cents a kwh you have it made for low cost driving not relying on the oil market shenanigans.

 

[brianl703]

Now that I have this room, I may (or may not) do a whole house surge suppressor, most likely not, at one time it was a thought and for some reason I thought, all the slots were used.

Eaton makes a CH breaker that contains a whole-house surge protector. It replaces a 30-amp circuit breaker.

 

[alarmguy]

That’s a very nice higher end Eaton CH panel, lucky. Have an electrician evaluate, you have a lot going on but not all of that is on at the same time. I would bet no problem to add level 2 EV and at 5 cents a kwh you have it made for low cost driving not relying on the oil market shenanigans.

Very cool, REALLY thank you for your input.
I dont know much about service panels and breakers, so its nice to hear, even more so in a production builder home.

Ive done a lot of electrical work in my old NY home a long time ago which I ran over 1000 ft of new wire (maybe more off the top of my head, cant remember) as well as rewired friends homes, always to and above code, one friends home was town inspected when we were done, ripped out all existing wire in a really old home.

This involved running A LOT of wire into the service panel and installing the correct breakers for the wire size, mostly always 20 awg. .
But never replaced service panels, always had a licensed electrician for the heavy stuff. Never knew anything about the quality of those panels either. Some of it was so long ago, there wasnt an internet yet.

 

[alarmguy]

Eaton makes a CH breaker that contains a whole-house surge protector. It replaces a 30-amp circuit breaker.

Thanks, until you and Knick Knack replied I didnt even know the breaker type, never much looked, I thought the panel was full. Exactly what I was looking for breaker whole house. The CH solves my question.
I remember back around the housing crash? Some of these companies where bought up went out of business, I see they are now under the Eton "flag" I think.

Anyway, I think this is what you are referring too? I have noticed on line that many of them say "plug on neutral" like on the last Amazon link I dont think I have that in my panel and have the first two links?

https://www.eaton.com/us/en-us/skuPage.CHNSURGE.html

Eaton CHNSURGE Type CH Circuit Breaker Surge Protective Device, Two Pole

Eaton offers a complete line of UL1449 4th Edition Listed surge protection products providing protection for all of your sensitive electronics and appliances in residential and light commercial applications.

www.cityelectricsupply.com

Amazon.com

 

[brianl703]

Anyway, I think this is what you are referring too? I have noticed on line that many of them say "plug on neutral" like on the last Amazon link I dont think I have that in my panel and have the first two links?

The one (two actually, I have two 200 amp panels, 400 amp service) that I got several years ago is a 30 amp breaker with a surge protector in it. They probably don't make that version anymore. The way you used that one is you replaced a regular 30 amp breaker with it, like the one for your electric water heater or your electric dryer. I think they also made a 50 amp version too.

So the one you found is JUST a surge protector, it doesn't have a circuit breaker in it. That will work just fine, you have plenty of empty spaces in that panel.

The plug-on neutral is only found in the latest CH panels. Safe to assume you don't have it and order one with the white wire coming out of it. (The plug-on neutral is a way of making a neutral connection without using a white wire coming out of the breaker--supposed to make the wiring neater for panels with a lot of AFCI and GFCI breakers that need the neutral connection).

 

[alarmguy]

The one (two actually, I have two 200 amp panels, 400 amp service) that I got several years ago is a 30 amp breaker with a surge protector in it. They probably don't make that version anymore. The way you used that one is you replaced a regular 30 amp breaker with it, like the one for your electric water heater or your electric dryer. I think they also made a 50 amp version too.

So the one you found is JUST a surge protector, it doesn't have a circuit breaker in it. That will work just fine, you have plenty of empty spaces in that panel.

The plug-on neutral is only found in the latest CH panels. Safe to assume you don't have it and order one with the white wire coming out of it. (The plug-on neutral is a way of making a neutral connection without using a white wire coming out of the breaker--supposed to make the wiring neater for panels with a lot of AFCI and GFCI breakers that need the neutral connection).

Thanks Brian,
Appreciate your response. Yes, they also make the 30 and 50 AMP breaker/surge combo unit. I would assume the 30 and 50 combo unit would only protect that one circuit vs the one without the breaker in it which I assume would do the whole panel. Yet I am sure the 30 and 50 might be more effective for that one circuit?
Not sure, but if I went with those 30 and 50s it would add to more expense then I want right now BUT *LOL* if those were two new A/C and heat pump units I would definitely put those in, right now they are going on 16 years old so will wait.

BTW = we are crazy about the surge suppressors in the house wall outlet type. Even on the refrigerator, washer and dryer plus every outlet with any electronic on it. I do it for fun and in the security business I have seen quite a few alarm panels blown out by surges. Ironically the most expensive thing in the home doesn't have anything, two HVAC units 2+ ton and 3 ton. GO figure... what got me interested again was next door has new units and I was surprised to see they installed two outdoor surge suppressors on them, the green light is on the bright side at night!

 

[brianl703]

Thanks Brian,
Appreciate your response. Yes, they also make the 30 and 50 AMP breaker/surge combo unit. I would assume the 30 and 50 combo unit would only protect that one circuit vs the one without the breaker in it which I assume would do the whole panel. Yet I am sure the 30 and 50 might be more effective for that one circuit?

The combo units protect the whole panel not just the circuit connected to them. I wouldn't expect that the combo units would protect the connected circuit any better than they do the whole panel..and on mine, what's connected them are a water heater and an old electric dryer, not exactly devices that are very sensitive to surges.

Since I have a whole-house surge protector on both panels, I don't really worry too much about point-of-use surge protection. Although I do have a surge protector on my 50-amp garage subpanel, where I connect the charger for my Chevy Volt.

That one is a GE Tranquell surge protector designed to mount in a panel.

 

[dubber09]

I came across an article a little while back basically saying that current electricity production cannot support even going 10% electric from current cars numbers. With gas and oil prices going up and 'green' movement at the time I don't see how it's happening. In USA, currently about 20% of electricity is produced by burning coal and about 40% by burning gas.

 

[PimTac]

Just checked the quotes.

Ford stock down almost 29% year to date.

GM stock down 34% year to date.


The markets are not confident in these companies.

 

[Cujet]

I have mentioned how much less complex EVs are.

The built in battery chargers are often stunningly complex. As are the controllers. Not to mention the 10,000 cells that are actively heated and cooled.

 

[alarmguy]

The built in battery chargers are often stunningly complex. As are the controllers. Not to mention the 10,000 cells that are actively heated and cooled.

But not as complex to the auto manufacturers as a fossil fuel vehicle.
Ford CEO refers to EVs as "less complex" than fossil fuel vehicles. Actually I just found the quote from the OP as follows =
“The complexity of the product in EV space is much less than at [internal combustion engines]. …And that’s going to allow us to be more efficient with our capital and more efficient with the labor and the assembly plants.”

I think safe to assume Controllers, Batteries, just about everything will be made by a third party and assembled by the manufacturer. I seriously doubt that built in chargers will be made by the automakers in the future UNLESS the automaker can make them cheaper than an electronic supplier.

Perfect example was the GM Bolt recall. GM replaced all those batteries but cost them almost nothing or nothing at all. LG the manufacturer paid GM 2 billion dollars to get the job done.

I really think we are going to be at the same stage as any electronic appliance with EVs one day. Everything will be supplied by outside suppliers and put together by the auto manufacturers which most of it is now except the fossil fuel engine. Now with that out of the way, automakers will become more like contractors. I can even see automakers one day buying the electric motors from companies like Whirlpool, Samsung, LG (just as a figure of speech because I dont know the real electric motor manufacturers that make electric motors as powerful and far more powerful than EV motors)

Much like the flat panel TV in your home might have been considered complex is now just an assortment of components made from other companies in many cases. .
At one time, the computers in every car on the road along with their emmisiosn controls would have been considered stunningly complex too but now just another plug in component.