Info For TC88 H.D. Engine Maintenence

[scudpilot]

Was talking to a long time Harley mechanic and owner of 5 Harleys ranging from early 60's Pans to evos and twin cam 88's.
He told me something about the cam tensioners on TC 88 engines that may be common knowledge here, but was news to me.Wanted to pass it on. The cam tensioners should be changed every 30,000 miles since they deteriorate and small pieces start to chip out of the tensioner and score the oil pump bearings, leading to reduced oil flow to the crank shaft with normal oil pressure showing. Harley has had a ton of crank shaft failures because of this.
The 2007 96 C.I. engine has corrected this problem with new tensioner material. All other years are vulnerable to this problem. He showed me a tensioner that he took out of one of his bikes with 40,000+ miles and you could clearly see the chipping.
He left the tensioner in for 40,000+ mi because he was not aware of the problem until then. It is a 2001 Ultra Classic.
The TC 88 came out in 1999, so anyone with this engine is suseptible to this problem thru 2006 model year.

 

[Fatboymoe]

When I bought mine back in 02, I waited till 5k to do engine mods I had planned. When it came to the cam drive, I changed over to gear drive from the chain drive. My tensioners were already showing a lot of wear at 5k. Gear drive makes more noise but is a better solution to eliminate the tensioner problems. With a D&D Fatcat 2into1 exhaust, I can't hear the gear drive anyway!

 

[PT1]

Correct! The tensioner shoes are orange so a lot of guys start cutting open their oil filters at about 25,000 miles looking for orange debris. This is one reason HD went to 5 micron oil filters and is a very good reason to use only a HD filter with that engine. Some guys lose them at 25-30,000 miles others go 50-60k on them but they all disintegrate sooner or later. The S&S gear drives are better but you can't have much crank runout to install them and have them operate correctly. It is firly easy to pull the cam cover off the right side and inspect the outer one visually. But then you must assume the inner one is wearing at the same rate.

Note: Guys who run synthetic oil claim longer life in the shoes. I don't know if that is true so I'll replace mine at 30k

 

[EagleFTE]

Yes the tensioners have been an issue for the TCs. Some get a lot of miles out of them and some break or wear very fast. Could be a number of reasons for this. Oil used, driving habits, engine mods, etc. Some people are taking the assembly apart and polishing the chains and getting good results. I thought they made some material changes over the years but I'm not sure. It would be a good idea to check by 20k and then maybe every 10 after. Just keep on top of it. It is not the end of the world to have to change them out. Consider it a long term consumable part of the system kind of like a timing belt on cars or change to gear drive.

 

[harley145000]

Scudpilot,Iam going to tear into my cam chest this spring to look at the tensioners.I have 31,000 miles on my 04 flh.

 

[scudpilot]

Please let me know how they looked. I have an 01' Road King with 20,000 miles. I've used Amsoil 20W50 from 2,000 miles till now. I will be curious how your chain tensioners looked with 30,000 mi. What type of oil do you use??
Thanks.

 

[seldont]

I will be interested to know how yours look as well. I have an 06 FLHTI that now is approaching 25000 miles. My son has an 03 Road King with nearly 30000 miles as well. My understanding is it sort of the luck of the draw and many of the problem we cured by late in the 06 model run. There seems to be a question of quality control on the cam chains which leads them to having somewhat of a sharp edge on the chain resulting in the wear on the cam tensioner shoes. It may not be an issue with the material of the shoes themselves.

 

[scudpilot]

The one I saw with 40,000 mi was definately the shoe material.
It is an orange color and looked like cement that is all pock-marked from road salt eating it away. I don't know if they made any corrections mid year in the 06' models, but I definately know that the 2007 models have a different material.

 

[harley145000]

scudpilot, I'll keep you posted on the tensioners.For the oil I used mostly H.D. 360.I have used Amsoil,Castrol V twin,H.D. syn3.As of now I have Castrol 4t 20w50 cycle oil in my bike.Alawys used an H.D. filter.

 

[harley145000]

Seldont,I believe you are correct.Bad chains or misaligned gears.

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: harley145000
Scudpilot,Iam going to tear into my cam chest this spring to look at the tensioners.I have 31,000 miles on my 04 flh.


You only need to remove the cover to inspect the outer one. You can get to the inner one with a dental mirror. Check Vtwin forums for the procedure. You have to drop your front exhaust pipe which is a pain but the cover gasket is only $6. Apparently the reason some guys tensioner shoes last and some don't is cranshaft runout. If you have more than .003 crank runout this causes the tensioner shoe to open and close against the chain which makes the shoe dig into the chain at speed.

so they start to shred. Some guys do UOA's and ask the lab to look for plastic in the oil (if that is possible). But me...I'll just have mine replaced or convert to S&S gear drives at 25k and bite the bullet as it's not worth grenading the motor. FWIW if you have more than .004 crank runout you can't convert to gear drives.

 

[hd2002]

I had an 02 Ultra, 2 sets of chain tensioners and 2 cam bearing failures. You can upgrade to hyd. tensioners and high volume oil pump. I replaced chain tensioners at 40,000 miles. When the first cam bearing failed at 60,000 miles I asked dealer to upgrade, he said it had to be the same until HD comes up with a kit. I told him Andrews had all the HD part numbers he was not comfortable with doing that. At 68,000 miles cam bearing noise again. I traded in for an 08.
If I had to do it over again, I would do the upgrade and not just replace tensioners.

 

[scudpilot]

hd2002,
When you say upgrade to hydraulic tensioners, is that the same as the gear drive cams that I've heard guys using, in fact one on this thread, or is it a different fix. I do like the high volume oil pump. How is the noise level on the Hyd drive? Have you heard one? Thanks..

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: hd2002
I had an 02 Ultra, 2 sets of chain tensioners and 2 cam bearing failures. You can upgrade to hyd. tensioners and high volume oil pump. I replaced chain tensioners at 40,000 miles. When the first cam bearing failed at 60,000 miles I asked dealer to upgrade, he said it had to be the same until HD comes up with a kit. I told him Andrews had all the HD part numbers he was not comfortable with doing that. At 68,000 miles cam bearing noise again. I traded in for an 08.
If I had to do it over again, I would do the upgrade and not just replace tensioners.


When he told you at 60,000 miles he was "uncomfortable" with the andrews parts you should have pressed the point and made them do it(I assume you had an extended warranty). If that happens again make them use torrington/timken bearings versus the INA ones.

 

[hd2002]

Originally Posted By: scudpilot
hd2002,
When you say upgrade to hydraulic tensioners, is that the same as the gear drive cams that I've heard guys using, in fact one on this thread, or is it a different fix. I do like the high volume oil pump. How is the noise level on the Hyd drive? Have you heard one? Thanks..


No, You can upgrade to the same set up as the 08 models. The 07's have hydraulic tensioners but not the high volume oil pump. I'm not positive about oil pump in 07? I know the 08's have both.
I notice no difference in noise on the 08.

 

[hd2002]

Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: hd2002
I had an 02 Ultra, 2 sets of chain tensioners and 2 cam bearing failures. You can upgrade to hyd. tensioners and high volume oil pump. I replaced chain tensioners at 40,000 miles. When the first cam bearing failed at 60,000 miles I asked dealer to upgrade, he said it had to be the same until HD comes up with a kit. I told him Andrews had all the HD part numbers he was not comfortable with doing that. At 68,000 miles cam bearing noise again. I traded in for an 08.
If I had to do it over again, I would do the upgrade and not just replace tensioners.


When he told you at 60,000 miles he was "uncomfortable" with the andrews parts you should have pressed the point and made them do it(I assume you had an extended warranty). If that happens again make them use torrington/timken bearings versus the INA ones.


I told him all part numbers were on Andrews web site. He told me he didn't have high volume oil pump and I could not wait for parts because it was at the end of our vacation 500 miles from home. All parts are HD parts, so it should have been "comfortable".
I did not have an extended warranty. I had been doing homework and was going to upgrade to gear drive or hyd. tensioners in winter. But last trip of season changed that.
Yes, you are correct about the bearings.

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: hd2002
Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: hd2002
I had an 02 Ultra, 2 sets of chain tensioners and 2 cam bearing failures. You can upgrade to hyd. tensioners and high volume oil pump. I replaced chain tensioners at 40,000 miles. When the first cam bearing failed at 60,000 miles I asked dealer to upgrade, he said it had to be the same until HD comes up with a kit. I told him Andrews had all the HD part numbers he was not comfortable with doing that. At 68,000 miles cam bearing noise again. I traded in for an 08.
If I had to do it over again, I would do the upgrade and not just replace tensioners.


When he told you at 60,000 miles he was "uncomfortable" with the andrews parts you should have pressed the point and made them do it(I assume you had an extended warranty). If that happens again make them use torrington/timken bearings versus the INA ones.


I told him all part numbers were on Andrews web site. He told me he didn't have high volume oil pump and I could not wait for parts because it was at the end of our vacation 500 miles from home. All parts are HD parts, so it should have been "comfortable".
I did not have an extended warranty. I had been doing homework and was going to upgrade to gear drive or hyd. tensioners in winter. But last trip of season changed that.
Yes, you are correct about the bearings.


Oh well you should be ok. If you get any issues then I would check your crankshaft runout as this can be the cause of tensioner failure. Lots of Harleys running for years with out of spec cranks but the tensioner design assumes <.002

 

[harley145000]

good advice pt1