Not much more to say beyond the fact bench tests used are irrelevant
Independent tests of European oils
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Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Not much more to say beyond the fact bench tests used are irrelevant
how do you test then? Do you use a real engine on a stand? That's not completely realistic either. Do you use accelerated testing? How many different engines should the oil be tested in? Over how long of a period?
Not much more to say beyond the fact bench tests used are irrelevant
how do you test then? Do you use a real engine on a stand? That's not completely realistic either. Do you use accelerated testing? How many different engines should the oil be tested in? Over how long of a period?
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Not much more to say beyond the fact bench tests used are irrelevant
how do you test then? Do you use a real engine on a stand? That's not completely realistic either. Do you use accelerated testing? How many different engines should the oil be tested in? Over how long of a period?
Well if you want accurate data that represents the actual environment the oil will be operated in you've gotta buy test mules,and put a go-pro in it so all driving conditions can be noted and at 300000 miles do a tear down.
Otherwise it's just conjecture.
Mobil at least used a real car when running their specific challenges. Lends more to actual use than in a lab. And let's face it. We don't drive in a lab.
I think it would be wise for the marketing departments to have multiple test mules in service so they can put their money where their mouths are.
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Not much more to say beyond the fact bench tests used are irrelevant
how do you test then? Do you use a real engine on a stand? That's not completely realistic either. Do you use accelerated testing? How many different engines should the oil be tested in? Over how long of a period?
Well if you want accurate data that represents the actual environment the oil will be operated in you've gotta buy test mules,and put a go-pro in it so all driving conditions can be noted and at 300000 miles do a tear down.
Otherwise it's just conjecture.
Mobil at least used a real car when running their specific challenges. Lends more to actual use than in a lab. And let's face it. We don't drive in a lab.
I think it would be wise for the marketing departments to have multiple test mules in service so they can put their money where their mouths are.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Not much more to say beyond the fact bench tests used are irrelevant
how do you test then? Do you use a real engine on a stand? That's not completely realistic either. Do you use accelerated testing? How many different engines should the oil be tested in? Over how long of a period?
They use a 4 ball and timken gear test.
Real engines on stand are used for approvals, these are much more severe and accelerated but are still the correct application for the oil. Additional many field trials are ran on cars in real world conditions to prove performance in the real world.
For a forums that prides itself on being the one stop of engine oil information there is a [censored] of a lot of ignorance about how much work goes into developing engine oils. It sea all that matter here is VI, tri molecular moly or boron numbers...
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Not much more to say beyond the fact bench tests used are irrelevant
how do you test then? Do you use a real engine on a stand? That's not completely realistic either. Do you use accelerated testing? How many different engines should the oil be tested in? Over how long of a period?
They use a 4 ball and timken gear test.
Real engines on stand are used for approvals, these are much more severe and accelerated but are still the correct application for the oil. Additional many field trials are ran on cars in real world conditions to prove performance in the real world.
For a forums that prides itself on being the one stop of engine oil information there is a [censored] of a lot of ignorance about how much work goes into developing engine oils. It sea all that matter here is VI, tri molecular moly or boron numbers...
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
[Real engines on stand are used for approvals, these are much more severe and accelerated but are still the correct application for the oil. Additional many field trials are ran on cars in real world conditions to prove performance in the real world.
Right. For approvals. How are we as consumers supposed to compare oils if not for a few simple bench tests.
Bottom line. Most auto enthusiasts are concerned with wear under extreme conditions. Ie when oil film breaks down and such.
[Real engines on stand are used for approvals, these are much more severe and accelerated but are still the correct application for the oil. Additional many field trials are ran on cars in real world conditions to prove performance in the real world.
Right. For approvals. How are we as consumers supposed to compare oils if not for a few simple bench tests.
Bottom line. Most auto enthusiasts are concerned with wear under extreme conditions. Ie when oil film breaks down and such.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
[Real engines on stand are used for approvals, these are much more severe and accelerated but are still the correct application for the oil. Additional many field trials are ran on cars in real world conditions to prove performance in the real world.
Right for approvals. How are we as consumers supposed to compare oils if not for a few simple bench tests.
Bottom line. Most auto enthusiasts are concerned with wear under extreme conditions.
Quite a few of the Euro test standards are extreme. The Porsche ones immediately come to mind FWIW.
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
[Real engines on stand are used for approvals, these are much more severe and accelerated but are still the correct application for the oil. Additional many field trials are ran on cars in real world conditions to prove performance in the real world.
Right for approvals. How are we as consumers supposed to compare oils if not for a few simple bench tests.
Bottom line. Most auto enthusiasts are concerned with wear under extreme conditions.
Quite a few of the Euro test standards are extreme. The Porsche ones immediately come to mind FWIW.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Quite a few of the Euro test standards are extreme. The Porsche ones immediately come to mind FWIW.
Please review them all and let us know what is the best oil.
Quite a few of the Euro test standards are extreme. The Porsche ones immediately come to mind FWIW.
Please review them all and let us know what is the best oil.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Quite a few of the Euro test standards are extreme. The Porsche ones immediately come to mind FWIW.
Please review them all and let us know what is the best oil.
Porsche says any oil on their approval list will provide nary identical performance to any other oil on that list. Ergo, there is no "best oil". This is why OEM testing regiments, when properly applied, are extremely useful.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Quite a few of the Euro test standards are extreme. The Porsche ones immediately come to mind FWIW.
Please review them all and let us know what is the best oil.
Porsche says any oil on their approval list will provide nary identical performance to any other oil on that list. Ergo, there is no "best oil". This is why OEM testing regiments, when properly applied, are extremely useful.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Ergo, there is no "best oil".
Sure there is. I thought you were a scientific mind. You know better.
Ergo, there is no "best oil".
Sure there is. I thought you were a scientific mind. You know better.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Ergo, there is no "best oil".
Sure there is. I thought you were a scientific mind. You know better.
All oils are compromises. To provide the best performance in all areas relevant to a suite of applications is a delicate balancing act. Mobil 1 0w-40 may very well be the "best oil" for many Euro cars that spec an oil in that weight due to it being certified against basically all of them. That does not however mean it would be a good choice for a Toyota Prius and far from the "best oil" for that application.
That's what I'm getting at. You can't just say one oil is the "best" because we aren't dealing with a singular application and the demands of each application can vary wildly.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Ergo, there is no "best oil".
Sure there is. I thought you were a scientific mind. You know better.
All oils are compromises. To provide the best performance in all areas relevant to a suite of applications is a delicate balancing act. Mobil 1 0w-40 may very well be the "best oil" for many Euro cars that spec an oil in that weight due to it being certified against basically all of them. That does not however mean it would be a good choice for a Toyota Prius and far from the "best oil" for that application.
That's what I'm getting at. You can't just say one oil is the "best" because we aren't dealing with a singular application and the demands of each application can vary wildly.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Ergo, there is no "best oil".
Sure there is. I thought you were a scientific mind. You know better.
All oils are compromises. To provide the best performance in all areas relevant to a suite of applications is a delicate balancing act. Mobil 1 0w-40 may very well be the "best oil" for many Euro cars that spec an oil in that weight due to it being certified against basically all of them. That does not however mean it would be a good choice for a Toyota Prius and far from the "best oil" for that application.
That's what I'm getting at. You can't just say one oil is the "best" because we aren't dealing with a singular application and the demands of each application can vary wildly.
I want an oil that works for my track application and still protects for a few seconds when the oil pump intake uncovers in a corner.
So I'm wasting my time doing comparisons with a bench wear test?
I don't need any Prius like qualities.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Ergo, there is no "best oil".
Sure there is. I thought you were a scientific mind. You know better.
All oils are compromises. To provide the best performance in all areas relevant to a suite of applications is a delicate balancing act. Mobil 1 0w-40 may very well be the "best oil" for many Euro cars that spec an oil in that weight due to it being certified against basically all of them. That does not however mean it would be a good choice for a Toyota Prius and far from the "best oil" for that application.
That's what I'm getting at. You can't just say one oil is the "best" because we aren't dealing with a singular application and the demands of each application can vary wildly.
I want an oil that works for my track application and still protects for a few seconds when the oil pump intake uncovers in a corner.
So I'm wasting my time doing comparisons with a bench wear test?
I don't need any Prius like qualities.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I want an oil that works for my track application and still protects for a few seconds when the oil pump intake uncovers in a corner.
So I'm wasting my time doing comparisons with a bench wear test?
I don't need any Prius like qualities.
Then the Porsche testing is relevant to you, as it simulates extended track time on the Nurburgring. Assuming an HTHS of ~3.5cP is adequate for your application, an oil from the Porsche approval list should be ideal.
And yes, the bench tests don't simulate those conditions, which is why it is nice when OEM's incorporate that type of testing into their actual tear down and approval tests. If they had merit, companies like Porsche would use them. But they don't.
I want an oil that works for my track application and still protects for a few seconds when the oil pump intake uncovers in a corner.
So I'm wasting my time doing comparisons with a bench wear test?
I don't need any Prius like qualities.
Then the Porsche testing is relevant to you, as it simulates extended track time on the Nurburgring. Assuming an HTHS of ~3.5cP is adequate for your application, an oil from the Porsche approval list should be ideal.
And yes, the bench tests don't simulate those conditions, which is why it is nice when OEM's incorporate that type of testing into their actual tear down and approval tests. If they had merit, companies like Porsche would use them. But they don't.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
[
Then the Porsche testing is relevant to you,
I believe that kind of testing and certs are pass/fail. I'm making an argument that simple wear testing has value for the hot rodder but I don't think you are getting it.
Testing I remember removed the sample from the oil bath for quite a while on Royal Purple oil and the scar was sill less than the others.
I don't care what anyone says. That is impressive.
[
Then the Porsche testing is relevant to you,
I believe that kind of testing and certs are pass/fail. I'm making an argument that simple wear testing has value for the hot rodder but I don't think you are getting it.
Testing I remember removed the sample from the oil bath for quite a while on Royal Purple oil and the scar was sill less than the others.
I don't care what anyone says. That is impressive.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Then heat the oil before performing the test. There is a guy on corvetteforum doing these tests with heated oil.
Sliding friction is sliding friction, you know, like a ring against a bore.
Rings on bores are hydrodynamically lubricated for the majority of the stroke.
a 4 ball/timken/rat504 has nothing to do with that (or any part OF an operating engine.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I want an oil that works for my track application and still protects for a few seconds when the oil pump intake uncovers in a corner.
So I'm wasting my time doing comparisons with a bench wear test?
I don't need any Prius like qualities.
Don't worry about your pistons/rings for that couple of seconds, they have a 10 seconds or so residence time for oil, so can handle a couple without fresh oil. Cams and valvegear are boundary/mixed, and probably won't notice the few seconds either.
If there was a bench test that simulated loaded bearings running dry (not 4 ball, because it doesn't simulate the interaction between the crank surface and asperities and whatever metals the bearings are made out of...different interaction), then it would be worthy...if you've come across such a test, please link to it.
As an aside, back in the bad old days of wet sumps at bathurst in the early 70s when small blocks were the front runners, there were whole numbers of seconds of zero oil pressure on every one of the 161 laps of the mountain.
Two schools of thought won the endurance race. More typically, a thicker oil (20W50) with less side leakage meant that there was more hanging around in the bearing in the off times, and that which stayed was thicker. The other was a guy who ran a 10W, and packed it full of Bardahl, which was (IIRC) a chlorinated additive like militec.
Then heat the oil before performing the test. There is a guy on corvetteforum doing these tests with heated oil.
Sliding friction is sliding friction, you know, like a ring against a bore.
Rings on bores are hydrodynamically lubricated for the majority of the stroke.
a 4 ball/timken/rat504 has nothing to do with that (or any part OF an operating engine.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I want an oil that works for my track application and still protects for a few seconds when the oil pump intake uncovers in a corner.
So I'm wasting my time doing comparisons with a bench wear test?
I don't need any Prius like qualities.
Don't worry about your pistons/rings for that couple of seconds, they have a 10 seconds or so residence time for oil, so can handle a couple without fresh oil. Cams and valvegear are boundary/mixed, and probably won't notice the few seconds either.
If there was a bench test that simulated loaded bearings running dry (not 4 ball, because it doesn't simulate the interaction between the crank surface and asperities and whatever metals the bearings are made out of...different interaction), then it would be worthy...if you've come across such a test, please link to it.
As an aside, back in the bad old days of wet sumps at bathurst in the early 70s when small blocks were the front runners, there were whole numbers of seconds of zero oil pressure on every one of the 161 laps of the mountain.
Two schools of thought won the endurance race. More typically, a thicker oil (20W50) with less side leakage meant that there was more hanging around in the bearing in the off times, and that which stayed was thicker. The other was a guy who ran a 10W, and packed it full of Bardahl, which was (IIRC) a chlorinated additive like militec.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
[
Then the Porsche testing is relevant to you,
I believe that kind of testing and certs are pass/fail. I'm making an argument that simple wear testing has value for the hot rodder but I don't think you are getting it.
Oh, I get it. But I think you are ascribing far more value to what these "tests" show than what it actually translates to in application. Which is why I'm harping on the OEM testing regimen thing, LOL!
Basically, if the OEM testing protocol has set the bar high enough, the things you are trying to test for become a non-issue. That's what I'm trying to point out.
There's no shortcut to determine the outcome of tear-down testing. That's why it is still employed in lieu of these bench tests, which, I will note, DO actually have some practical uses in their intended applications, like for gear oils and greases.
Don't get me wrong, I certainly understand the allure of the personal nature of bench tests and feeling you are doing something "more". But I've also seen my share of engines apart and what I've seen generally supports the fact that using an appropriate lube for an application changed at a sane interval is all that is needed. With the added qualifier that if you are doing a flat tappet mill with an aggressive camshaft that this plays into your lubricant selection as well.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
[
Then the Porsche testing is relevant to you,
I believe that kind of testing and certs are pass/fail. I'm making an argument that simple wear testing has value for the hot rodder but I don't think you are getting it.
Oh, I get it. But I think you are ascribing far more value to what these "tests" show than what it actually translates to in application. Which is why I'm harping on the OEM testing regimen thing, LOL!
Basically, if the OEM testing protocol has set the bar high enough, the things you are trying to test for become a non-issue. That's what I'm trying to point out.
There's no shortcut to determine the outcome of tear-down testing. That's why it is still employed in lieu of these bench tests, which, I will note, DO actually have some practical uses in their intended applications, like for gear oils and greases.
Don't get me wrong, I certainly understand the allure of the personal nature of bench tests and feeling you are doing something "more". But I've also seen my share of engines apart and what I've seen generally supports the fact that using an appropriate lube for an application changed at a sane interval is all that is needed. With the added qualifier that if you are doing a flat tappet mill with an aggressive camshaft that this plays into your lubricant selection as well.
It may be impressive and you are free to be impressed by it - but again, how is it relevant?
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I believe that kind of testing and certs are pass/fail. I'm making an argument that simple wear testing has value for the hot rodder but I don't think you are getting it.
Testing I remember removed the sample from the oil bath for quite a while on Royal Purple oil and the scar was sill less than the others.
I don't care what anyone says. That is impressive.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I believe that kind of testing and certs are pass/fail. I'm making an argument that simple wear testing has value for the hot rodder but I don't think you are getting it.
Testing I remember removed the sample from the oil bath for quite a while on Royal Purple oil and the scar was sill less than the others.
I don't care what anyone says. That is impressive.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
[
Then the Porsche testing is relevant to you,
I believe that kind of testing and certs are pass/fail. I'm making an argument that simple wear testing has value for the hot rodder but I don't think you are getting it.
Testing I remember removed the sample from the oil bath for quite a while on Royal Purple oil and the scar was sill less than the others.
I don't care what anyone says. That is impressive.
Put a gear oil EP additive in that test and you will great results. Doesn't mean it will be a good engine oil though.
And the engine tests for OEM are far more detailed that just pass fail limits
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
[
Then the Porsche testing is relevant to you,
I believe that kind of testing and certs are pass/fail. I'm making an argument that simple wear testing has value for the hot rodder but I don't think you are getting it.
Testing I remember removed the sample from the oil bath for quite a while on Royal Purple oil and the scar was sill less than the others.
I don't care what anyone says. That is impressive.
Put a gear oil EP additive in that test and you will great results. Doesn't mean it will be a good engine oil though.
And the engine tests for OEM are far more detailed that just pass fail limits
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
How are we as consumers supposed to compare oils if not for a few simple bench tests.
Without having an exceedingly well equipped lab and a boatload of expertise, one has to rely on the tests done by others who are so equipped, along with the approvals that go with such testing. If simple bench tests that could be replicated at home could tell us all we need to know, there'd be no point in multi-billion dollar R&D departments.
How are we as consumers supposed to compare oils if not for a few simple bench tests.
Without having an exceedingly well equipped lab and a boatload of expertise, one has to rely on the tests done by others who are so equipped, along with the approvals that go with such testing. If simple bench tests that could be replicated at home could tell us all we need to know, there'd be no point in multi-billion dollar R&D departments.
I can make a good argument that the wear bench tests tell the hot rodder crowd all they really need to know about the oil.
I mean you're just trying to pick between a hand full of top tier oils so you can't really go wrong anyway.
I mean you're just trying to pick between a hand full of top tier oils so you can't really go wrong anyway.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I can make a good argument that the wear bench tests tell the hot rodder crowd all they really need to know about the oil.
Lay on, Macduff...
I'm interested in good arguments that assist us in learning, particularly the relevence of such bench testing to the hotrodder's engines...
I can make a good argument that the wear bench tests tell the hot rodder crowd all they really need to know about the oil.
Lay on, Macduff...
I'm interested in good arguments that assist us in learning, particularly the relevence of such bench testing to the hotrodder's engines...
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