Do you know what's in MMO?
I'm playing with MMO again...
- Thread starter Big O Dave
- Start date
- Status
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
I will do it again when the thing stops starting with just a bump of the key for the first start of the day ..maybe sooner if I get bored. The stuff obviously leaves no residuals ..even in such high concentrations
Now that the valves were cleaned up a bit ..my economy is running about 19-20 mpg on a semi short run comute (9 miles). Typical long mileage was in the 23-24 range. I haven't had the opportunity to do a long run with it since the repair. If I can get the wife to use it on her 50 mpd daily drive ..then I can get some "fair" figures.
I passed the emissions test without difficulty ..other than having to retard the timing for NOX. I don't have an EGR ..so that's how you manipulate that number. CO and HC were both fine. I have my original cat @ 172k. I would think between the fogger that it was for years before I Auto-Rx'd it ..and the MMO doses ..if anything was going to happen to the cat ..it would have by now. At this point (170k+) ..I would think that a cat is allowed to take a crap on its own without having any help from anything else. That is, it would be a little tough to blame MMO ..or Techron ..or Regane ..or anything at this point. Using anything and getting it to pass would tend to strongly infer, in my mind anyway, that those products are transparent to the cat and don't do squat to it ..at least in any lasting manner.
Chernobylite: I can't get the MSDS up at the moment ....but it's posted somewhere in here. Look here. You have to poke around a little to find it.
It's timing out while I'm posting this
I was at Menards the other day and I noticed they were selling, on sale for 99 cents, MMO that's marketed especially for use as fuel treatment. Comes in a 12 oz bottle. At that price I picked up a couple of bottles. I've never seen this before.
Here is a link to a picture of the bottle:
http://doityourself.com/store/6889273.htm
Here is a link to a picture of the bottle:
http://doityourself.com/store/6889273.htm
I already knew but was curious if others did. MMO's use has long been debated in the piston powered aviation community and as such has been analyzed several times. IIRC the testing showed it to be 10% a 5w light base oil, 75% solvent, some phosporous, and a dash of wintergreen. I could dig up the results, I have them around here somewhere.
It was found to have no benefits whatsoever although the FAA determined it did no harm and in the end that's all they care about as they can't endorse a product. As an oil additive the solvent flashed off almost immediately and provided no benefit. As a fuel additive it lowered the octane rating.
It did work well for cleaning ring packs if the cylinder was brought to TDC and soaked but that's no surprise considering it's mostly solvent but as an oil or fuel additive it was considered nothing more than snake oil. People still swear by it though so I dunno. Myself, I don't use it in anything I own. Fwiw, MMO will not harm a catalyst.
I'm surprised you got away with reducing your timing to lower Nox. I'm guessing your state must not do BAR 97 emission testing (I used to be BAR 97 certified) because a timing check is required during the inpsection.
It was found to have no benefits whatsoever although the FAA determined it did no harm and in the end that's all they care about as they can't endorse a product. As an oil additive the solvent flashed off almost immediately and provided no benefit. As a fuel additive it lowered the octane rating.
It did work well for cleaning ring packs if the cylinder was brought to TDC and soaked but that's no surprise considering it's mostly solvent but as an oil or fuel additive it was considered nothing more than snake oil. People still swear by it though so I dunno. Myself, I don't use it in anything I own. Fwiw, MMO will not harm a catalyst.
I'm surprised you got away with reducing your timing to lower Nox. I'm guessing your state must not do BAR 97 emission testing (I used to be BAR 97 certified) because a timing check is required during the inpsection.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
We do a dyno test for everything before 1996. I will actualy have to look at the print out to see what data it actually records. I don't have an egr valve and the reason my NOX was high was probably because the timing was too advanced to begin with. That's how many DC/Jeep engine manage NOX ..via cam/injector/ignition timing. The cam overlap leaves enough spent combustion material in the cylinder to cool the combustion process..
I've been having pinging problems with my 1990 460 V8 motorhome. The plugs that recently came out were very heavily coated with black stuff (carbon I presume). Anyway, I think I got some bad gas at one station in the hills of southern Illinois and it was pinging badly. Added a shot of premium and it still knocked. Finally I filled the whole 36 gallon tank with premium and added one quart MMO. After about a quarter tank was burned off I realized I had wimped out and threw a second quart of MMO in. Then on the next tank I ran about 89 octane and would occasionally get a knock. Added another quart of MMO when there was about 12 gallons left and ran about half that fuel out before filling with 87 octane. Still knocking. I think I need to try one more time when it is about a third tank left and add 2 quarts MMO.
Or Gary, do I recall correctly that you dumped two quarts ATF (cheaper than MMO) in your minivan once? Maybe I should try that.
Oh BTW I had run a couple gallons of Schaeffer's Neutra before that at half ounce to one ounce per gallon. But I think this one is going to take a lot of time to clean out.
Now, my F150 300 I6 (1995) is very slow starting cold and not so great hot. Maybe the MMO should be added to the F150 to see if I can get quicker starts.
Or Gary, do I recall correctly that you dumped two quarts ATF (cheaper than MMO) in your minivan once? Maybe I should try that.
Oh BTW I had run a couple gallons of Schaeffer's Neutra before that at half ounce to one ounce per gallon. But I think this one is going to take a lot of time to clean out.
Now, my F150 300 I6 (1995) is very slow starting cold and not so great hot. Maybe the MMO should be added to the F150 to see if I can get quicker starts.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
Yes, I did ..and have done it in many engines ..mainly older engines ..but many sensored without difficulty. Keep in mind that ATF formulations may have changed in recent years. Apparently the ash produced is some concern. In most applications that I've used it ..it was with rapid induction via the PCV line either stationary or under full load (on the highway with extension hose).
Although I don't discount the reservations that have been posted about it it's use, I cannot argue with my results and the evidence of my pistons and heads upon tear down. There were no deposits. Now the possibility, however unlikely, that my engine had no deposits of consequence in 13 model years and 170k miles is plausible ...but my test would surely indicate that MMO and ATF didn't leave anything behind.
In your 460 ..at the concentrations that you used, I'm surprised that you got no exhaust indications. Big Dave reported the same thing
If you're knocking is constant under load ..I would tend to think deposits, assuming that the ignition is otherwise tuned correctly. If however your knocking is cyclical with coasting and loading more then just everytime you push the gas from cruising, then I would expect oil dripping into the cylinder and preigniting the fuel charge. This can also occur with heavier blow by vapors.
Although I don't discount the reservations that have been posted about it it's use, I cannot argue with my results and the evidence of my pistons and heads upon tear down. There were no deposits. Now the possibility, however unlikely, that my engine had no deposits of consequence in 13 model years and 170k miles is plausible ...but my test would surely indicate that MMO and ATF didn't leave anything behind.
In your 460 ..at the concentrations that you used, I'm surprised that you got no exhaust indications. Big Dave reported the same thing
If you're knocking is constant under load ..I would tend to think deposits, assuming that the ignition is otherwise tuned correctly. If however your knocking is cyclical with coasting and loading more then just everytime you push the gas from cruising, then I would expect oil dripping into the cylinder and preigniting the fuel charge. This can also occur with heavier blow by vapors.
This baby is not using any oil. After the MMO the knock was not as bad (or I got better fuel), and mainly showed up under high rpm and high load combined. I should check the timing but the deposits definitely are there and the tailpipe is very sooty black.
I am thinking to continue the Neutra for storage, but try something else for when in use, maybe Fuel Power.
1sttruck: A lot of people see slight decreases in MPG when using significant quantities of MMO (generally when using more than the dose on the bottle), and I wonder if that doesn't have something to do with it. I've been told by a master tech that Techron in quantity decreases octane ratings slightly as well, but I have nothing to substantiate this with. He once "reminded me" that I should use higher octane gas when I fill with the Techron. He was involved in testing on additives years ago, but he's old school. You just reminded me of it.
I got rid of a half bottle of MMO along with some other misc fluids the other day, as I won't be using it anymore. I tried it for a few months but noticed that it seemed to lower octane a bit and would make a knock worse on one car that had the timing a bit too far advanced, although the timing was set to factory specs. I had also used it on the newer car after getting the pinging under control with some Techron, after trying a couple of other cleaners, and after a few thousand miles the pinging returned, indicating that it wasn't keeping the carbon out. A bottle of Techron fixed it.
We're probably a worse case user as we live on a hill that we need to climb up at slower speed, and anything not right results in pinging. I guess that's why the older had retarded timing, as we had the dealer work on it for years. In any case the MMO wasn't woking for me, so I'll put my additive money into something else :^)
We're probably a worse case user as we live on a hill that we need to climb up at slower speed, and anything not right results in pinging. I guess that's why the older had retarded timing, as we had the dealer work on it for years. In any case the MMO wasn't woking for me, so I'll put my additive money into something else :^)
I used MMO and Techron as recommended on the bottles. The best mileage that we ever got on the older car was when I used some Techron at the start of a vacation trip, which seemed like a quick way to get some cleaning done. In a loaded Taurus sedan (5 people plus car camping stuff) we got 32 mpg heading south on I5 from Portland. At the time the car would typically get 29 mpg on the road.
On one aircraft maintenance site that I ran across one mechanic observed that MMO didn't seem to clean carbon that well, but it did seem to provide some lubrication that would keep valves from sticking longer.
On one aircraft maintenance site that I ran across one mechanic observed that MMO didn't seem to clean carbon that well, but it did seem to provide some lubrication that would keep valves from sticking longer.
I see a decrease in MPG in both of my cars w/MMO, and Im using the recomended dosage of 4oz. to 10 gal. of fuel. Both vehicles have 20 gal. fuel tanks,('01 RX-300 & '04 Altima 2.5). MOF, the drop in MPG is quite significant,(3-5 mpg). But, both engines are a bit smoother and quieter, and no more or less responsive. The Altima took the larger hit. Nothing else has changed as-far-as driving style, octane, even the weather is still nice and pleasant. If anything, both cars got a little more highway driving which should have increased the MPG a bit, not drop it!
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked