Illinois 15 dollar/hr incremental raise

[emg]

Originally Posted by Wolf359
Minimum wage does basically put a floor on the race to the bottom.


Minimum wage puts a floor on the price at which it's worth automating a job away. Combine that with artificially low interest rates so companies have a huge supply of almost-free loans to pay for that automation, and it's a recipe for mass unemployment.

At $5 an hour, it's not worth putting touchscreens into McDonalds' and encouraging customers to order with an app. At $10 it may be. At $15 it almost certainly is. So those jobs go away and they'll never, ever come back.

And, as others have pointed out, minimum wage hikes devalue the work of those in low-paid skilled jobs. I saw an EMT posting online recently that, once the minimum wage hike came through, he was going to quit and get a low-stress minimum-wage job because as an EMT he'd only be making about $1 an hour over the new minimum wage.

 

[emg]

Originally Posted by ZZman
Who says fast food or other "lowly" jobs aren't worth more money?


The companies who are replacing those jobs with machines.

The ordering jobs could have been automated away a decade ago. They've continued to exist because it was cheaper to pay people to do it than to install the infrastructure required for automation. Now that companies are being forced to pay more to employ people to do those jobs, they're worth automating.

Right now, it's still cheaper to pay people to flip burgers than to automate that work. But the cost of automation comes down and the price of employing people goes up, and those jobs will soon go, too.

The vast majority of jobs are going to be automated away over the next couple of decades. Forcing up wages merely accelerates that schedule.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted by emg
Originally Posted by ZZman
Who says fast food or other "lowly" jobs aren't worth more money?


The companies who are replacing those jobs with machines.

The ordering jobs could have been automated away a decade ago. They've continued to exist because it was cheaper to pay people to do it than to install the infrastructure required for automation. Now that companies are being forced to pay more to employ people to do those jobs, they're worth automating.

Right now, it's still cheaper to pay people to flip burgers than to automate that work. But the cost of automation comes down and the price of employing people goes up, and those jobs will soon go, too.

The vast majority of jobs are going to be automated away over the next couple of decades. Forcing up wages merely accelerates that schedule.


Yep.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted by ZZman
The minimum wage has not kept up with inflation and needs to be higher than it is. We can't complain about people at the bottom getting assistance and on the other hand not want to pay them decent wages so they don't need assistance.


So take the risk, start your own business, and pay people what you think they should be paid. Problem solved.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted by ZZman
The minimum wage has not kept up with inflation and needs to be higher than it is. We can't complain about people at the bottom getting assistance and on the other hand not want to pay them decent wages so they don't need assistance.


Agreed

 

[Mr Nice]

$11.50 is a good national min wage.

Of course in California, NY, NJ, etc... is still low.

 

[cjcride]

Originally Posted by ZZman
The minimum wage has not kept up with inflation and needs to be higher than it is. We can't complain about people at the bottom getting assistance and on the other hand not want to pay them decent wages so they don't need assistance.

on this we agree

 

[aquariuscsm]

Pay people a livable wage and end welfare. MAKE people work.

 

[Mr Nice]

More than 1.4 million households dropped off food stamps since President Donald Trump's first full month in office in February 2017, according to U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) data on food stamp enrollment.

Hopefully this number increases drastically....

 

[javacontour]

Exactly!

It is always easier to spend other people's money. When that payroll is coming out of your pocket, it is not as simple.

My daughter works at Starbucks and will tell you that not everyone in her store is worth $15/hour at their current skill and work ethic practice.

As others have noted, some will do well at the higher wage. Others, whose skill or other factors figure in, will find it harder to get or keep a job that they can do.


The kiosk doesn't call in sick, or miss the bus, or have to get a sitter, or have car trouble, and so on.

Originally Posted by 02SE
Originally Posted by ZZman
The minimum wage has not kept up with inflation and needs to be higher than it is. We can't complain about people at the bottom getting assistance and on the other hand not want to pay them decent wages so they don't need assistance.


So take the risk, start your own business, and pay people what you think they should be paid. Problem solved.

 

[ZZman]

Originally Posted by javacontour
Exactly!

It is always easier to spend other people's money. When that payroll is coming out of your pocket, it is not as simple.

My daughter works at Starbucks and will tell you that not everyone in her store is worth $15/hour at their current skill and work ethic practice.



I guess we could use that argument on any profession or job. Are people worth 100.00 an hour or even 1,000's of dollars an hour when the average American makes maybe 20-25.00 an hour.
I would much rather see people at the bottom make livable wages than give even more wealth to those who really don't need it.

 

[Alfred_B]

Originally Posted by Mr Nice
More than 1.4 million households dropped off food stamps since President Donald Trump's first full month in office in February 2017, according to U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) data on food stamp enrollment.

Hopefully this number increases drastically....


Because the requirements became tougher, not because the need went away. They either go hungry or go to a food bank.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted by ZZman
Originally Posted by javacontour
Exactly!

It is always easier to spend other people's money. When that payroll is coming out of your pocket, it is not as simple.

My daughter works at Starbucks and will tell you that not everyone in her store is worth $15/hour at their current skill and work ethic practice.



I guess we could use that argument on any profession or job. Are people worth 100.00 an hour or even 1,000's of dollars an hour when the average American makes maybe 20-25.00 an hour.
I would much rather see people at the bottom make livable wages than give even more wealth to those who really don't need it.


If a person has unique knowledge and/or ability such that someone (or themselves if self-employed) can pay them 100's, 1000's, or more per hour, then yes, they are worth that much per hour.

If you have no skills, beyond asking if someone wants fries with their burger, you are easily replaced. Either by another unskilled person, or the kiosk that is a one-time purchase, doesn't take the day off from work with no notice, because it's Thanksgiving and they want to watch a ball game, doesn't steal from the business, etc, etc.

If you want to command more money than minimum wage, you are going to need to have more skills and ability than a kiosk that can ask if you want fries with that.

So again, take the risk, start your own business, and pay whatever it is you consider to be a "livable wage". If your business model is viable, you and your employees will be a great success.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted by Alfred_B
Originally Posted by Mr Nice
More than 1.4 million households dropped off food stamps since President Donald Trump's first full month in office in February 2017, according to U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) data on food stamp enrollment.

Hopefully this number increases drastically....


Because the requirements became tougher, not because the need went away. They either go hungry or go to a food bank.


Or because the unemployment rates are at historic lows, they got a job.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted by ZZman
Originally Posted by javacontour
Exactly!

It is always easier to spend other people's money. When that payroll is coming out of your pocket, it is not as simple.

My daughter works at Starbucks and will tell you that not everyone in her store is worth $15/hour at their current skill and work ethic practice.



I guess we could use that argument on any profession or job. Are people worth 100.00 an hour or even 1,000's of dollars an hour when the average American makes maybe 20-25.00 an hour.
I would much rather see people at the bottom make livable wages than give even more wealth to those who really don't need it.


So would I, but the question is, how do we get the people at the bottom closer to the top? Is it society's responsibility to mandate higher wages at the bottom, or is it the individual's responsibility to make themselves marketable for higher paying jobs? I believe it's the latter...

 

[emg]

Part of the problem is that governments have passed laws and regulations that favour massive corporations over small business, which is part of what's led to the McDonaldization of the West.

It may be noteworthy that the small, local burger chain we have in town still has people taking orders, while McDonalds have touchscreens; the small chain has better food that's more expensive (though not vastly so), so they can afford to pay people to do the job, and the cost of automation would be higher because it's not being spread across thousands of stores.

 

[Alfred_B]

Originally Posted by 02SE
Originally Posted by Alfred_B
Originally Posted by Mr Nice
More than 1.4 million households dropped off food stamps since President Donald Trump's first full month in office in February 2017, according to U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) data on food stamp enrollment.

Hopefully this number increases drastically....


Because the requirements became tougher, not because the need went away. They either go hungry or go to a food bank.


Or because the unemployment rates are at historic lows, they got a job.

No, hunger rates have not decreased. Pre recession, 11.1% of households were hungry, in 2016 12.3% were hungry. The highest during the recession was 14.9%

Illinois actually fares better than the average of the states. For example, only 5.2% of children live in food insecure households compared to, let's say, 10.4% of children in Arizona

 

[ZZman]

Originally Posted by grampi


So would I, but the question is, how do we get the people at the bottom closer to the top? Is it society's responsibility to mandate higher wages at the bottom, or is it the individual's responsibility to make themselves marketable for higher paying jobs? I believe it's the latter...


Yes, it is a better kinder societies responsibly if we don't want to abuse the poor and less fortunate. Those jobs need filling by someone and it is most often adults working those low wage jobs. Would you prefer the wealthy get even more they can't spend?

Taxes help spread the wealth to those at the bottom. Raising MW can help. Workers and unions fighting for better wages, benefits etc can help.

Absolutely make yourself marketable for really good jobs. But some can't or won't for any number of reasons. How much should fellow Americans suffer at the bottom?

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted by ZZman
Originally Posted by grampi


So would I, but the question is, how do we get the people at the bottom closer to the top? Is it society's responsibility to mandate higher wages at the bottom, or is it the individual's responsibility to make themselves marketable for higher paying jobs? I believe it's the latter...


Yes, it is a better kinder societies responsibly if we don't want to abuse the poor and less fortunate. Those jobs need filling by someone and it is most often adults working those low wage jobs. Would you prefer the wealthy get even more they can't spend?

Taxes help spread the wealth to those at the bottom. Raising MW can help. Workers and unions fighting for better wages, benefits etc can help.

Absolutely make yourself marketable for really good jobs. But some can't or won't for any number of reasons. How much should fellow Americans suffer at the bottom?


So why don't you start your own benevolent business, and pay people what you think they should be earning? I've mentioned this several times, and you've ignored it.

You make it sound so simple. This should be a slamdunk for you.

 

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by ZZman


Taxes help spread the wealth to those at the bottom. Raising MW can help. Workers and unions fighting for better wages, benefits etc can help.


You cannot tax people into prosperity. Illinois is hemorrhaging people to Indiana because of property taxes alone. Can't "spread the wealth" when all the wealth leaves.