Illinois 15 dollar/hr incremental raise

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by jeepman3071
It's more complicated than just raising the minimum wage.

Yes costs have skyrocketed, and wages have remained flat. Raising the minimum wage won't improve anything unfortunately. Corporations won't agree to just suddenly turn less profit, they will build the increase into their costs, essentially making the "real" cost stay the same.

But the market will only bare a certain price and competition will force them to lower it to what the market will bare though.


Exactly, which will result in the 30 registers with only 3 cashiers type scenario. Who suffers? The employees (being understaffed) and the customer (worse service).

 

[StevieC]

Until complaints and declining sales when they will be forced to fix that. It takes time and it's painful along the way but it benefits them in the end kicking and screaming.

Look at the booming economy in the 1950's/1960's when wages were plentiful in comparison to living costs and 1 income was enough to raise a large family and buy a house and a car. Now 2 incomes for middle aged folks, people are just getting by. Surely they aren't all shopaholics living outside of their means.

 

[Linctex]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Energy poverty is real, old folks running out of money is real, they wouldn't be working cashier jobs and greet roles if they didn't need to.


Judging by savings reports and retirement account reports..... THIS IS ONLY GOING TO GET WORSE!

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Perhaps the part about the above that bothers me the most is that you have Heroin Heather and Methy Mike living with their 3x JD's in community housing, collecting welfare and rolling around in a Suburban while the rest of us are working and you've got old people eating bloody dog food in an apartment that's basically at fridge temperature and can't even afford to take a cab. They end up in emerge with a broken hip because they tried to walk to the grocery store and Methy Mike almost ran over them with his taxpayer-funded bro-dozer because he's half-lit

WOW, when were down in Texas visiting? Humor, yes - but EXACT same thing happening here

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by StevieC


I said OK to what he posted. I understand what he is saying.

Originally Posted by StevieC

As for skills increasing leading to increased pay? Yeah not a chance. Wages have been flat for 50 years when compared to cost of living which has lead to a sharp rise in consumer debt and poverty for the "Middle Class" or as it should be called "Working Poor".


Yes, that's an entirely separate but still extremely significant issue. My parents paid like $80K for our first house in the early 80's. It was huge, dad finished the attic, he was working part time teaching night courses, my mom was teaching public school, climbing the ladder. By the early 90's she was making very good money. A Mustang GT was a $15K car in 1988.

Looking at Toronto, 1981 the average house price was ~$200K. It's now like $900K. That's almost a 5x increase. In the same period car prices have also gone up. A base Mustang GT is like $45K up here now. While minimum wage has increased roughly 3-fold since 1989 in Ontario, folks making $25K a year back then, that same job isn't paying $75K now. Folks making $15/hr, which was a very good wage in the 1980's, wouldn't be making $45-$75 now.

There is certainly significant stagnation across various brackets where wages have not kept up with inflation.

 

[StevieC]

But with Minimum wage earners spending back into the economy at higher rates proportional to their income than CEO's would it make sense that it would drive middle class jobs and thus we would feed the CEO's and wealthy elites? It's a ladder effect right?

We are stalling out because the lower classes are broke.

It's no anomaly that the economy has increased debt load largely at the same time wages have been stagnant and living costs have increased. We can't fix the problem without investment.

You wouldn't expect a return from a bank or financial advisor without investing first would you? They broke the investment loop with cheap offshore labour and then broke it further by stagnating wages when sales missed expectations from breaking it the first time by offshoring things. So their answer? Cut further and this cycle continues but they don't realize one feeds the other.

MADNESS! Definition of insanity is expecting different results without changing anything right? And we know wealthy tax-cuts and corporate tax cuts have the opposite effects. It has been proven time and time again that it doesn't function for the people and only functions for corporations and the wealthy despite the nonsense they keep rehashing. Stats don't lie.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by Linctex
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Energy poverty is real, old folks running out of money is real, they wouldn't be working cashier jobs and greet roles if they didn't need to.


Judging by savings reports and retirement account reports..... THIS IS ONLY GOING TO GET WORSE!


Of course it will, because these folks are living off a fixed income, which is in no way tied to inflation. So while they continue to try and survive off the same amount every month, everything continues to get more and more expensive, so they can afford less and less.

Originally Posted by Linctex
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Perhaps the part about the above that bothers me the most is that you have Heroin Heather and Methy Mike living with their 3x JD's in community housing, collecting welfare and rolling around in a Suburban while the rest of us are working and you've got old people eating bloody dog food in an apartment that's basically at fridge temperature and can't even afford to take a cab. They end up in emerge with a broken hip because they tried to walk to the grocery store and Methy Mike almost ran over them with his taxpayer-funded bro-dozer because he's half-lit

WOW, when were down in Texas visiting? Humor, yes - but EXACT same thing happening here


The last time? When the new Parkland Hospital opened

It's a symptom of poorly regulated public services.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by StevieC
But with Minimum wage earners spending back into the economy at higher rates proportional to their income than CEO's would it make sense that it would drive middle class jobs and thus we would feed the CEO's and wealthy elites? It's a ladder effect right?

We are stalling out because the lower classes are broke.

It's no anomaly that the economy has increased debt load largely at the same time wages have been stagnant and living costs have increased. We can't fix the problem without investment.

You wouldn't expect a return from a bank or financial advisor without investing first would you? They broke the investment loop with cheap offshore labour and then broke it further by stagnating wages when sales missed expectations from breaking it the first time by offshoring things. So their answer? Cut further and this cycle continues but they don't realize one feeds the other.

MADNESS! Definition of insanity is expecting different results without changing anything right?

Yup. "Back in the day" before the offshoring, you had a very large pool of people who were all invested in the various stages of production and procurement. Those that worked in manufacturing could and would buy the products they made. The paradigm shift occurred, as you noted, with the offshoring of manufacturing. That previously generous base contracted, those well-paying jobs disappeared, and these were replaced by the "greeter" and "McJob" and so you had a group with significantly less buying power spending more of what they had just to live. These folks could no longer afford to buy the products they used to make and the responsibility of that procurement shifted up the ladder a rung, landing on those only a bit better off than those other folk. Prices increased, but wages didn't. At the same time, the cheapening of products being offshored drove up consumption and this resulted in the "Walmartization" of society. To continue to boost profits, selling more junk was a better business model than selling fewer quality goods and it was discovered that people would be surprisingly tolerant of buying garbage with a reasonably short lifespan.

Low interest rates to spur consumption and maintain momentum has allowed for price growth to significantly outpace wage growth. Terms have gotten longer and have allowed those stuck in the wage rut to buy more "stuff". Because the system needs people buying "stuff" at an ever increasing rate in order to not implode.

You are 100% right that the "system" was broken with the ability exploit cheap 3rd world labour. It took a sawzall to the bottom of the ladder and now it doesn't work properly.

 

[StevieC]

We agree on something?

All kidding aside, they can't fix the globalization like some think is possible, but what we can do if adapt the systems so there isn't a great equitable divide or it's going to end up bad for everyone. And it's scary where that "ending" is.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by StevieC
We agree on something?

All kidding aside, they can't fix the globalization like some think is possible, but what we can do if adapt the systems so there isn't a great equitable divide or it's going to end up bad for everyone. And it's scary where that "ending" is.


It happens

 

[Wolf359]

I believe Australia has a high minimum wage for a while, about equivalent to $13 US. Prices there seem higher though.

 

[69GTX]

Originally Posted by Leo99
.....A lot of economics are wacky today. Rent for a decent house is like $1500 to $2000 a month. You can buy such a house for the same or less money per month.


That's not whacky when you consider taxes and insurance each year running $3K-$5K for just modest homes in modest areas. So add another $300/month for that. Then include home maintenance - roofing, plumbing-hvac, septic/sewer, electrical repairs, painting, grounds up keep including tree pruning/cutting-driveways, tools, upgrades, etc, depreciation, etc. Lots of costs that aren't incurred by the renter. All that is probably another $300/month. And if your property is not in an appreciating region, you get doubly hit. From 2008-2017 my home only went down in value....the complete opposite of 1996-2007. The Northeast for example outside of major cities or fast growing school communities hasn't come close to recovering the losses from 2008-2017.

 

[555]

The path of a Canadian workers money is different than that of worker in the United States. They have different positives and negatives. Drawing parallels is good for discussion but they are not parallel. Sorry for the ambiguity. Gotta watch where I'm stepping. Hot lava, egg shells, tight rope....

 

[billt460]

The economic model for "success" in states like Illinois, New York, and California, is to force employers to pay people as much as possible who work part time, unskilled jobs that were never meant to earn a living on. Then turn around and give them as many government handouts and freebies as possible when they don't. We've seen just how well it has worked for them over the last half century they've managed to hold power in Illinois, and other states and cities like Detroit and Baltimore.

They continue to prove what everyone else already knows. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. It's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. As this economic foolishness of paying more for less grows, the business tax base for these states will continue to head for the hills. That economic rubber band can only stretch so far. It's going to be a fun show to watch when it finally snaps.

 

[ZZman]

If 15.00 was the nation wide minimum wage no state would have an advantage. Yes, prices would rise some to cover it but so what. People need to live. Businesses need employees. Every job in society is important and makes the big machine run.

 

[IndyFan]

Originally Posted by ZZman
If 15.00 was the nation wide minimum wage no state would have an advantage. Yes, prices would rise some to cover it but so what. People need to live. Businesses need employees. Every job in society is important and makes the big machine run.


Look at what you said there. "Yes, prices would rise some to cover it but so what." The so what is that when the prices rise, you just nullified the pay raise. When government dorks around with economic controls and ideas like that, you move one step closer to Venezuela, the USSR, Cuba, Detroit, etc. (The list goes on...)

Want to raise wages? Get the economy moving. Don't stiffle it like that. Right now, there are more jobs than qualified people. THAT will drive wages up. My son works at McDonalds for his first job. They started him at better than minimum wage, and he'll get a dollar an hour more at 6 months. He also gets a hundred dollar bonus for referring new hires. That's how the free market works. No progressivism was involved in that. He'll then work hard, learn, and advance as he continues his education for something better. That ain't rocket science, folks. Oh yeah, he does something else foreign to progressives. He shows up every day, has a postitive attitude, and works hard. He's increasing his value on his own, with no help from anyone else, with the exception of good advice and upbringing, oh yeah, and a ride to and from work until he gets his license. His sisters saw this and they now work there with him. (He is getting the $200 for bringing them in.)

As someone else said, these entry level jobs are not meant to provide a living. They are meant to provide a start. If you kill off entry level pay like that, you'll kill off those jobs, and then kill off opportunity. Then kids like mine won't have an opportunity to learn how to work, budget, plan, and save. I don't want the government planning for them. They can do this themselves. They must. They are either in college or out on their own after high school. They know it, and because of this, they'll be just fine.

 

[alarmguy]

It amazes me how willing (foolishly) people are to let government (public servants) dictate to private business owners how much they have to pay employees.
Contrary to what people think in here (after reading all these posts)

Raising the min wage to the ungodly sum of $15 an hour does nothing but put the largest employers of Americans out of business while the largest corporations in the world thrive and expand.

Raising the min wage only helps HUGE companies (Like McDonalds) because they can survive (automation ect)
Small business can not and they employ most Americans. More or less the Federal Government is helping out big business by putting small business out of business.
If you dont be careful, someday the young will be working in communes (like China) virtual work factories with housing as all that will be left is big business.

 

[DejaVue]

Manipulated wages distort reality. Not every job is worth $15/hr. Forcing every job to be worth $15/hr means various jobs will no longer exist, maybe the jobs will get done in illegal ways to avoid paying higher wages (and taxes), etc.

Also, wage inflation likely results. A small office manager currently making $15/hr now says hey I have more skills than a trainee at McDonalds, so pay me $20/hr or I quit. And someone making $20 or whatever an hour says hey if they're making $15/hr I deserve $25. And then prices inflate, making the new wages not be worth any more in actual use than the old wages were.

Also, if people are practically guaranteed a "living wage" no matter what low-skill job they have, then more people will start to think why should I bother to go to college or a trade school when I can make a "living wage" just by showing up?

2. Wage and price inflation hurts retirees. They based their retirement on certain prices, now prices (including housing, etc) are going to get all jacked up, and those retirees have no way of increasing their wages since they don't have a wage. Higher minimum wages hurts older people. Why do so many people want to hurt their own grandmother?

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted by IndyFan
Originally Posted by ZZman
If 15.00 was the nation wide minimum wage no state would have an advantage. Yes, prices would rise some to cover it but so what. People need to live. Businesses need employees. Every job in society is important and makes the big machine run.


Look at what you said there. "Yes, prices would rise some to cover it but so what." The so what is that when the prices rise, you just nullified the pay raise. When government dorks around with economic controls and ideas like that, you move one step closer to Venezuela, the USSR, Cuba, Detroit, etc. (The list goes on...)

Want to raise wages? Get the economy moving. Don't stiffle it like that. Right now, there are more jobs than qualified people. THAT will drive wages up. My son works at McDonalds for his first job. They started him at better than minimum wage, and he'll get a dollar an hour more at 6 months. He also gets a hundred dollar bonus for referring new hires. That's how the free market works. No progressivism was involved in that. He'll then work hard, learn, and advance as he continues his education for something better. That ain't rocket science, folks. Oh yeah, he does something else foreign to progressives. He shows up every day, has a postitive attitude, and works hard. He's increasing his value on his own, with no help from anyone else, with the exception of good advice and upbringing, oh yeah, and a ride to and from work until he gets his license. His sisters saw this and they now work there with him. (He is getting the $200 for bringing them in.)

As someone else said, these entry level jobs are not meant to provide a living. They are meant to provide a start. If you kill off entry level pay like that, you'll kill off those jobs, and then kill off opportunity. Then kids like mine won't have an opportunity to learn how to work, budget, plan, and save. I don't want the government planning for them. They can do this themselves. They must. They are either in college or out on their own after high school. They know it, and because of this, they'll be just fine.

+1,000.

Many fast food places like Wendy's are answering the call for higher minimum wages by introducing self serve kiosk's, in order to reduce the number of employees, (jobs). (They basically turn the register around and let the customer push the buttons, instead of paying an order taker $15.00 an hour to do it). Just like banks have reduced jobs by applying automated tellers in many branches.

Or places like Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Lowe's, and grocery stores have eliminated check out positions by going to self serve checkouts. They have one person to watch over a dozen or more self serve checkout machines. What amazes me is how this stuff is happening right under peoples noses, and they still can't figure out why.

 

[DejaVue]

There's a big reason why wages have become stagnant. It's because of the increase in imported workers. More workers increases the supply of labor and lowers wages. And citizenship works against citizens since non-citizens will work for lower wages in order to earn citizenship status.

I hesitated to type that since it might be seen as political. But it's not political. It's just a description of supply and demand economics.

Also, people who want a $15/hr minimum wage would literally rather have government use force to shut down a business and make everyone unemployed than allow the employer and employees to mutually agree on a $14.99/hr wage.

 

[atikovi]

Originally Posted by StevieC
It was proven that paying $20/hr to someone flipping burgers would only increase the cost of the burger at McDonalds something like $0.25 each. Seems like a no brainer to me...


Then what's the incentive for some teen to stay in school or even go to college when he can make $40,000 a year flipping burgers?