If the American Car Companies Fail...

[OVERKILL]

I've NEVER had an issue with Ford's EEC stuff (EEC-IV or EEC-V), the emissions stuff, yeah, a bunged up EGR valve on a 20 year old car with 336,000Km on it, and my sister has had to have the EGR solenoid replaced on the Explorer last year.... It's a '97. So I'm not sure where this is coming from?

GM intake gasket fiasco is well-known and an engineering disaster. I don't think anybody is denying that. Ford had their own share of plastic intake failures... though nothing as epic as GM's gasket issue.

 

[artificialist]

Well, I sure see a lot of DPFE sensors fail. Every other manufacturer has a different way of monitoring the EGR, and their systems usually work quite well.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: artificialist
Well, I sure see a lot of DPFE sensors fail. Every other manufacturer has a different way of monitoring the EGR, and their systems usually work quite well.


Ford's older EGR position sensor was quite reliable. The DPFE issue seems more common on the Focus..... But it's a pretty minor issue compared to GM's intake gasket issue, wouldn't you agree? Or what about Honda's automatic transmission lifespan? Toyota's sludge-festival of fun? They ALL have their issues. The severity of the issues is what needs to be considered.

 

[Hirev]

Quote:
It seems like the entire executive team at Toyota makes less combined than the CEO of GM the last time I checked, and they seem to be more effective.

So let's outsource the executives, and leave the labor here
I sure like that idea.

With the devastating one two blows of gas prices and than the credit and leasing financing. I got to wonder how many Chrysler and GM dealers are going to survive the next two years to sell their products. They just had a Hummer dealer close up a week ago around here. The large Chevy dealer I go by just about every day looks like a ghost town the last 6 months.

 

[OVERKILL]

The Kia dealer I went to today to look at the Excursion; their used car lot is FULL of Ford and GM trucks, apparently they move a LOT of them. No pressure sales either... Big three should learn from that one.....

 

[TurboLuver]

GM's "intake fiasco" is rivaled only by Ford's ignition switch and cruise control switch fiasco.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Cutehumor
the government could pass a law saying that only vehicles built in USA will be sold in the USA.


In that case foreign countries could retaliate in WTO by banning any US imports of any sort. Europe did that to us when we ban/tariff foreign steel, by taxing the heck out of oranges, produces, food, and all sorts of things.

(political disclaimer.... this is not intended to be political)

What they particularly did was to target our president's political party's support base, due to the heavy support of many agricultural states in the South.

Our president had to end the tariff early as a result.

 

[kingrob]

Quote:
How many customers have said no to GM, due to the fact that their V6 intake manifold gaskets are junk?


You can count me in on that one there. I've done the gasket replacement myself many times over. Three years ago I decided to never buy another new GM due to their arrogant stance on their "non-problem". However, I love Saturn (before it was incorporated into the general GM line-up). I still think my Buick is a great car. On another post I quoted hundreds of thousands of miles I've got from these GM V-6's. But concerning the intake gasket leaks, I just feel like GM could have done me one better.

As far as imports go, as I've said here many times before I will not support the Euro/Asian companies as much as I can. I will not buy a new or used VW, BMW, Nissan, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Mitsubishi, etc. I don't like what they have to offer and I never forgot the Zero's and the Hitler designed Beetle.

Reliability is a non-issue, as American cars have proven time and again that they are just as reliable as any other car on the road. I get so tired of hearing this "I'll only drive Toyota because I had to replace the brakes on my Cavalier three times in one year, yada yada yada". ALL makes and models have inherent flaws that ALL companies let slip through the rug. GM's arrogance towards one particular HUGE design flaw is what made me decide to put them on my blacklist though. If they would have stepped up to bat ten years ago and said, hey we've discovered that these intake gaskets are [censored] and have been for ten years and we're going to fix them NOW and change the design and reimburse everyone that had to pay out of pocket- - well, no harm no foul. But they ignored this and let it go on for another ten years! How many millions of disgusted, non-repeat GM owners did it take to make them reconsider their stance?

But you have to admit we did it to ourselves in a way too. Think about the illiterate drop-out in Detroit that's getting paid 20.00 an hour to put lug-nuts on Cadillac wheels at the assembly line. Who do you think's paying for him to work, live, retire, die, and send his kids to college? It's the consumer. The union's that strike every five minutes because the Ford dental plan doesn't cover their great-grandchildren. There was a reason that the Model T retailed at 299.00 dollars (at that time about two months salary)and still made two hundred dollars profit! Also, Henry Ford payed his workers extraordinarily high wages for the time. But then the unions stepped in and started the ball rolling...

I think we should use whatever laws in our power as a nation to get the unions out of the big three. You want to work? Fine. Here's what we'll pay you. Here's what benefits we offer. You don't want it? There's plenty of people out there who would be happy at a 30,000 a year salary. You have no business earning 100,000 a year for gapping spark plugs on an assembly line. We wouldn't have to ship jobs to China and Mexico. We wouldn't have to charge as much for our cars. We could get the import companies hands out of our pockets for good. But we, as American's would rather not work than to work for a livable wage.

We're not China, and we're not Mexico. Our workers are worth more than 3.00 an hour. But there has to be a ceiling, a point that we reach where the American auto-buyer says enough is enough, I want a well built car but it shouldn't cost me thirty grand to own one. And we shouldn't have to look towards other countries to fill that void.

I "Buy American", whatever that means now, any chance I get. That means not shopping at Wal-Mart as much as possible and not buying a Toyota. I don't care if the car is made here, I care whether or not the money stays in America. But I want it going back into America, not some greedy Union Boss's back pocket.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: TurboLuver
GM's "intake fiasco" is rivaled only by Ford's ignition switch and cruise control switch fiasco.

The number of cruise control pressure switches that have ACTUALLY caused a problem VS the number of GM engines lost to the intake gaskets leaking coolant into the crankcase and cooking the engine? Yeah, I'll take that bet.

I KNOW of three GM 3.8's right off the top of my head that have failed due to the intake gasket situation.

I know of ZERO Ford vehicles personally that have had ANYTHING arise from the cruise control pressure switch.

Lets take this one step further:

Fix to issue with cruise pressure switch: A fuseable link in the power wire to the switch, or a relay to turn the switch off when the key is off. $.50 for a fuseable link, relay is what, a couple bucks? 20 minutes or so to install the fuseable link, maybe an hour to setup the relay.

Problem solved. Permanently.

GM's intake issue: disassemble top-half of the engine to remove intake manifold. Pull off all intake plumbing. Clean and prep gasket surfaces on both the intake manifold and the cylinder heads. Fit with new gaskets.

You then have to be vigilant because the problem can, and often DOES come back, and then you get to do it AGAIN!



Yes, those two issues sound genuinely comparable, I'm quite glad you brought that up.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
But there are politicians who are really against free trade; if free trade treaties were repealed, the benefits obtained since WWII could be reversed.


Well, although I would not want to reenact the Fair Trade Laws ..surely having a balanced trade policy would automatically assure domestic integrity. What it would do is stop "market expansion" ..and no one making money off of brokering our lifestyles to other could profit in that environment. They would cite all kinds of bad side effects ..sorta rationalizing the EXTREMELY BAD side effects the American population is supposed to endure for the sake of their enhanced lifestyles ..at their expense.

That's the way I always see it depicted. "If you do that global trade will come to a halt!!" ..well, if that's such a big deal ..do whatever you have to do to make it either leave me be ..or make me better off. Otherwise, it's no different than some alleged union wanting to live high on the hog at someone elses expense...if you see what I mean.

Why should I support a process that assures that I'll be poorer a year from now?

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
American car model lines could be reduced 90%. Saturn is the only GM line worth saving. Honestly, where does Buick fit in going toward the future? WWII/Boomers are the only people buying that ~type~ of car.



I happen to drive one of those Buicks you mention and although I'm old, I'm nowhere near as old as a WWII baby boomer. I totally disagree with your assessment of Buick; it's my opinion that Saturn ought to get the boot.

 

[kc8adu]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: TurboLuver
GM's "intake fiasco" is rivaled only by Ford's ignition switch and cruise control switch fiasco.

The number of cruise control pressure switches that have ACTUALLY caused a problem VS the number of GM engines lost to the intake gaskets leaking coolant into the crankcase and cooking the engine? Yeah, I'll take that bet.

I KNOW of three GM 3.8's right off the top of my head that have failed due to the intake gasket situation.

I know of ZERO Ford vehicles personally that have had ANYTHING arise from the cruise control pressure switch.

Lets take this one step further:

Fix to issue with cruise pressure switch: A fuseable link in the power wire to the switch, or a relay to turn the switch off when the key is off. $.50 for a fuseable link, relay is what, a couple bucks? 20 minutes or so to install the fuseable link, maybe an hour to setup the relay.

Problem solved. Permanently.

GM's intake issue: disassemble top-half of the engine to remove intake manifold. Pull off all intake plumbing. Clean and prep gasket surfaces on both the intake manifold and the cylinder heads. Fit with new gaskets.

You then have to be vigilant because the problem can, and often DOES come back, and then you get to do it AGAIN!



Yes, those two issues sound genuinely comparable, I'm quite glad you brought that up.

do you really care if the cruise control switch damages your engine when it causes the car to spontaneusly combust in your attached garage at 2am?you stand a good chance of not being around to complain about anything!
had a whole family down the road from me wiped out from an f150 cruise switch fire.
and they are not alone.
not that i defend either mfr.making junk long after you know about a problem is bad enough.
continuing to build deadly junk and dragging your feet fixing the ticking timebombs you already sold is criminal!
me and my friends made plenty fixing gm intake gaskets.chrysler a604 transmissions,ect.just like i now do fixing dell gx260,270,280 motherboards with bad capacitors.
got plenty of otherwise good vehicles often for free this way.
including a lumina apv(dustbuster van)with 22,000 miles on it.

 

[flacoman]

The Ford 3.8's had their own headgasket issues too, that they finally 'fessed up to. Lotsa money down the drain on that one. IIRC, an employee stood up at a stockholder's meeting and asked the CEO (Nasser) at the time why they were giving $99 dollar Dell PC's to the workers instead of making a headgasket that worked in the 3.8 & 4.2 engines. Wonder what his next review looked like!

my2c
Jorge

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: kingrob

I think we should use whatever laws in our power as a nation to get the unions out of the big three. You want to work? Fine. Here's what we'll pay you. Here's what benefits we offer. You don't want it? There's plenty of people out there who would be happy at a 30,000 a year salary. You have no business earning 100,000 a year for gapping spark plugs on an assembly line.


I would leave the onus of that negotiaton up to management, which would never have the stones to do it. Receivership, bankruptcy would work because it would finally get new blood in the boardroom.

In my mind the pinnacle of captialism is negotiating long and hard for what you want, and the unions did this, in their own (and workers') interests, better than the opposite "team". Bravo!

When the WB and UPN television networks "turned into" the CW, they didn't actually merge; they both "ceased operations". If Ford and Chrysler merge, they could do the same, and all their union contracts would be null and void.

 

[brianl703]

Originally Posted By: artificialist
For some reason, you can't replace a $2 plastic connector and heat shrink the insulation.


The problem may well be that the parts guy doesn't want to take the time to look up the part number for $2 connector so he tells you it isn't available.

You can bet that if it were a warranty repair that parts guy would look that $2 part up!

 

[brianl703]

Originally Posted By: artificialist
Well, I sure see a lot of DPFE sensors fail.


I've read that the usual failure mode is condensation buildup in the DPFE tube from short-trip driving. Apparently disconnecting the DPFE tube and letting it drain is all it takes to resolve the problem..until the condensation builds up again. I forget what the permanent fix, if any, is. Maybe a larger diameter tube?

The DPFE on my '95 Contour went about 170k miles before it started giving problems.

 

[XCELERATIONRULES]

Originally Posted By: kingrob
Quote:
How many customers have said no to GM, due to the fact that their V6 intake manifold gaskets are junk?


You can count me in on that one there. I've done the gasket replacement myself many times over. Three years ago I decided to never buy another new GM due to their arrogant stance on their "non-problem". However, I love Saturn (before it was incorporated into the general GM line-up). I still think my Buick is a great car. On another post I quoted hundreds of thousands of miles I've got from these GM V-6's. But concerning the intake gasket leaks, I just feel like GM could have done me one better.

As far as imports go, as I've said here many times before I will not support the Euro/Asian companies as much as I can. I will not buy a new or used VW, BMW, Nissan, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Mitsubishi, etc. I don't like what they have to offer and I never forgot the Zero's and the Hitler designed Beetle.

Reliability is a non-issue, as American cars have proven time and again that they are just as reliable as any other car on the road. I get so tired of hearing this "I'll only drive Toyota because I had to replace the brakes on my Cavalier three times in one year, yada yada yada". ALL makes and models have inherent flaws that ALL companies let slip through the rug. GM's arrogance towards one particular HUGE design flaw is what made me decide to put them on my blacklist though. If they would have stepped up to bat ten years ago and said, hey we've discovered that these intake gaskets are [censored] and have been for ten years and we're going to fix them NOW and change the design and reimburse everyone that had to pay out of pocket- - well, no harm no foul. But they ignored this and let it go on for another ten years! How many millions of disgusted, non-repeat GM owners did it take to make them reconsider their stance?

But you have to admit we did it to ourselves in a way too. Think about the illiterate drop-out in Detroit that's getting paid 20.00 an hour to put lug-nuts on Cadillac wheels at the assembly line. Who do you think's paying for him to work, live, retire, die, and send his kids to college? It's the consumer. The union's that strike every five minutes because the Ford dental plan doesn't cover their great-grandchildren. There was a reason that the Model T retailed at 299.00 dollars (at that time about two months salary)and still made two hundred dollars profit! Also, Henry Ford payed his workers extraordinarily high wages for the time. But then the unions stepped in and started the ball rolling...

I think we should use whatever laws in our power as a nation to get the unions out of the big three. You want to work? Fine. Here's what we'll pay you. Here's what benefits we offer. You don't want it? There's plenty of people out there who would be happy at a 30,000 a year salary. You have no business earning 100,000 a year for gapping spark plugs on an assembly line. We wouldn't have to ship jobs to China and Mexico. We wouldn't have to charge as much for our cars. We could get the import companies hands out of our pockets for good. But we, as American's would rather not work than to work for a livable wage.

We're not China, and we're not Mexico. Our workers are worth more than 3.00 an hour. But there has to be a ceiling, a point that we reach where the American auto-buyer says enough is enough, I want a well built car but it shouldn't cost me thirty grand to own one. And we shouldn't have to look towards other countries to fill that void.

I "Buy American", whatever that means now, any chance I get. That means not shopping at Wal-Mart as much as possible and not buying a Toyota. I don't care if the car is made here, I care whether or not the money stays in America. But I want it going back into America, not some greedy Union Boss's back pocket.


I'm guessing you've never owned an import.
I bought American most of my life.
After owning a few imports,Nissan Sentra,Honda Accord,Lexus es 250,Toyota Corolla,and rarely seeing them in the shop,I no longer have a loyalty to the big three.
I also have a lot more money left in my wallet.

 

[kingrob]

Actually I have owned two Nissans. One was a Sentra (which for the record out of about forty five cars I've owned in my life its the only one to suffer permanent engine damage) and one Maxima. I'll stick with American, thank you.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: kc8adu
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: TurboLuver
GM's "intake fiasco" is rivaled only by Ford's ignition switch and cruise control switch fiasco.

The number of cruise control pressure switches that have ACTUALLY caused a problem VS the number of GM engines lost to the intake gaskets leaking coolant into the crankcase and cooking the engine? Yeah, I'll take that bet.

I KNOW of three GM 3.8's right off the top of my head that have failed due to the intake gasket situation.

I know of ZERO Ford vehicles personally that have had ANYTHING arise from the cruise control pressure switch.

Lets take this one step further:

Fix to issue with cruise pressure switch: A fuseable link in the power wire to the switch, or a relay to turn the switch off when the key is off. $.50 for a fuseable link, relay is what, a couple bucks? 20 minutes or so to install the fuseable link, maybe an hour to setup the relay.

Problem solved. Permanently.

GM's intake issue: disassemble top-half of the engine to remove intake manifold. Pull off all intake plumbing. Clean and prep gasket surfaces on both the intake manifold and the cylinder heads. Fit with new gaskets.

You then have to be vigilant because the problem can, and often DOES come back, and then you get to do it AGAIN!



Yes, those two issues sound genuinely comparable, I'm quite glad you brought that up.

do you really care if the cruise control switch damages your engine when it causes the car to spontaneusly combust in your attached garage at 2am?you stand a good chance of not being around to complain about anything!
had a whole family down the road from me wiped out from an f150 cruise switch fire.
and they are not alone.
not that i defend either mfr.making junk long after you know about a problem is bad enough.
continuing to build deadly junk and dragging your feet fixing the ticking timebombs you already sold is criminal!
me and my friends made plenty fixing gm intake gaskets.chrysler a604 transmissions,ect.just like i now do fixing dell gx260,270,280 motherboards with bad capacitors.
got plenty of otherwise good vehicles often for free this way.
including a lumina apv(dustbuster van)with 22,000 miles on it.


MOST of the issues that have actually arose from the sensor failure have been melted sensors. It is not a flawed PART per se; rather Ford's USE of the part was the problem. Dodge uses the same part, as do, I am sure, a number of other manufacturers. Ford left the device live all the time with no fuseable link in the power lead for it, so that in the event the device DOES fail (like the odd sensor does on any vehicle) it instead goes into dead-short mode, creating substantial heat and melting the wire, sensor or, potentially, causing a fire.

The FIX is quite simple, as I outlined in my previous post, and there are a number of ways for it to be implemented. I honestly cannot see why Ford hasn't just released a small extension plug with a fuseable link or replaceable fuse in the middle to put in-line with the pressure sensor. That would solve the problem and be quite cost-effective.

Other manufacturer's have it on a relay, so it'll only catch fire when your vehicle is running

Honda had the oil filter engine fire issue too don't forget, and their own share of problems with faulty ignition switches.

No manufacturer has a perfect track record.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: kingrob

I think we should use whatever laws in our power as a nation to get the unions out of the big three. You want to work? Fine. Here's what we'll pay you. Here's what benefits we offer. You don't want it? There's plenty of people out there who would be happy at a 30,000 a year salary. You have no business earning 100,000 a year for gapping spark plugs on an assembly line.


I would leave the onus of that negotiaton up to management, which would never have the stones to do it. Receivership, bankruptcy would work because it would finally get new blood in the boardroom.

In my mind the pinnacle of captialism is negotiating long and hard for what you want, and the unions did this, in their own (and workers') interests, better than the opposite "team". Bravo!

When the WB and UPN television networks "turned into" the CW, they didn't actually merge; they both "ceased operations". If Ford and Chrysler merge, they could do the same, and all their union contracts would be null and void.


This will surely occur. Keep in mind that you should be very careful what you wish for. We'll all be picking up the tab on the shortfall of pension obligations, meanwhile the value that should have been sequestered to assure them is long gone in upper management's stock options and shareholder dividends (or cashed out). So the bill that we socialize ..only on the most fundamental of levels, is right now residing in some private citizen's pocket or collective institution. The automobile industry is a very integral part of this economy. While you may not realize how much ...you are about to get a very big lesson.