If the American Car Companies Fail...

[globey]

Originally Posted By: Ed_T
Do not many "foreign" car badges now have and have had manufacturing plants in the U.S.?

Two out of the three Toy's in our drvieway were "made" here, in KY, IIRC.


Yes, that's what they want you to think...that you are still supporting the U.S. and its employees. GM employees over 100K while Toyota, the largest non-US employer employs 36K. Ten times is a bit of an exaggeration, but the number disparity grows from there.

 

[KrisZ]

No matter how much support we give to the Big 2.8, it seems that they will just use the money for their own selfish purposes (overpaid execs anyone?). They do not invest in a better product that would result in a happy customer. Instead, they play the old patriotic game with everybody while doing the bare minimum at a maximum profit.
The 25 billin $ bailauot is a prime example. The usual arguments were used, "keep the american jobs", and "national security", but how much more support can we really give? It is obvious that the money will go to the execs, golden parachutes and they will just keep coming back for more while the customers and the tax payers get the shaft and more jobs go overseas.
I look after my own best interests, because guess what, nobody else does and I buy what makes sense to me and I think that's what everybody else should do without judging someone else's choice.

 

[Lazy JW]

I gave up on American vehicles when they couldn't get the paint to stay on and REFUSED TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT!

Time was when you could actually order a vehicle built to your specs. I tried that a few years back (Dodge Dakota). The stealership didn't even want to talk about it, all they wanted to do was sell me what was on the lot.

I bought a 1998 Isuzu Trooper; it has been the best vehicle I have owned (the paint is still good too). Too bad I can't buy a new one now.
Joe

 

[TurboLuver]

If the American auto industry would have bought in to Edwards Deming's philosophy back in the 40s-50s we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[Max_Wander]

They can always do what theyre good at, supporting both sides of any given war. there are always wars going on.... Do the German Nazis need anymore tanks?

 

[Kestas]

Originally Posted By: TurboLuver
If the American auto industry would have bought in to Edwards Deming's philosophy back in the 40s-50s we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Agreed. It is also widely accepted that the competition with japanese imports markedly raised the levels of quality with American automobiles.

 

[addyguy]

There is talk in the news right now of Chrysler being broken up, and sold in pieces. GM is interested in picking over the pieces....

 

[Saturn_Fan]

News reports suggested as many as 66,000 jobs could be lost with the merger.

 

[CivicFan]

I buy whatever fits my needs at the time best. If it's going to be a car made by the 'three' or some other maker from abroad then be it.

I own GM and Ford stocks and some other foreign makers through mutual funds so personally I am indifferent. When it comes to jobs I would agree with trying to buy cars made here so that the jobs stay here. So cars like the Accord or Camry are perfectly acceptable choices. Buying a GM car that's made in Korea is also acceptable. The profits stay here and hopefully boost my stock prices. The jobs that are created in Korea boost their economy which enables them to import American goods and services.

In a global marketplace, things don't work quite the way the OP has portrayed.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: XCELERATIONRULES
Americans haven't made a quality car since 1972.
I always bought Gm until they turned to [censored].
I rarely have repair bills on my Japenese cars.
The auto workers and their benefit package put the auto industry out of business.
So long.
I'll keep my Toyota.


My mom's family has been buying Ford products since the early 1900's, starting with the Model A.

My mom's dad owned five thunderbirds, 3 continentals, two F-150's, one F-250 and two different Ford tractors

Two Ford Y-blocks were fitted to two different boats of ours due to reliability and power. The one was a 1950's original that had never been apart (noisy bugger) and the other was a 425HP mill that would propel the 22' tripple-cockpit launch to in excess of 70Mph.

My parents have owned:
1. VW Bug
2. 1970's F-150
3. 1965 Mustang
4. Pinto
5. Fairlane
6. Fiat
7. 80's Caprice Wagon
8. '86 Olds Custom Cruiser Wagon
9. '89 Town Car
10. 67 Thunderbird with 427SOHC "Cammer"
11. 1998 Ford Expedition
12. 2000 Ford Expedition (current)
13. 2003 Lincoln Town Car (current)

The ONLY vehicles they have any complaints about were the Olds Wagon and the Pinto. Dad vowed never to buy another GM product after the Wagon.

Personally I've owned:
1. 1974 Old Cutlass Supreme
2. 1997 Ford Explorer
3. 1987 Mustang GT
4. 1988 F-250
5. 1989 Town Car (dad's old car)
6. 1982 Capri Black Magic (doesn't really count, I've never driven it, it's a body replacement for the Mustang).

The Lincoln has been an absolute GEM. ORIGINAL ball joints finally needed replacing this past summer.... On a car that had in excess of 300,000Km on it. Transmission is still original, shortblock is still original (I upgraded the top-end), and the rear main weeps (though it seems to have stopped with the M1 TDT) MAYBE 1L per 10,000Km........ The engine burns no oil. This car has made more trips from Ontario to the East Coast than I can count.

My Mustang was as close to zero maintenance as I could get. It was easy on everything except tires.

My F-250 had a timing gear failure due to an overheating event (my fault), which gave me an excuse to swap the engine out for a 302HO. Everything else was original on that truck save the brakes and tires.

Explorer needed a transfer case at 230,000Km, hub assembly for the drivers side at 150,000Km and maintenance items like brakes and tires a number of times. My sister owns it now and it's still going. Tranny needed a new valve body assembly and torque converter at 290,000Km, which was ~1,100 dollars. This was because of a non-lockup condition that was forcing the tranny into limp mode whenever it tried to go into O/D.

My parents experience with their two most recent vehicles (with the exception of the lower ball joints being replaced on the 2000 Expedition) has been event-free.

So as you can see, our experience has been quite different from yours.


I do agree that the unions seem to be raping the NA auto industry though.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: globey
Originally Posted By: Ed_T
Do not many "foreign" car badges now have and have had manufacturing plants in the U.S.?

Two out of the three Toy's in our drvieway were "made" here, in KY, IIRC.


Yes, that's what they want you to think...that you are still supporting the U.S. and its employees. GM employees over 100K while Toyota, the largest non-US employer employs 36K. Ten times is a bit of an exaggeration, but the number disparity grows from there.


What's the relative market share?
The contemporary figures appear to say that Toyota is about 66% of GM's sales. Now that would surely still mean a pretty decent gap ..but how many of Toyota's parts and engineering is outsources to offshore interests? That is, is Toyota engineering/R&D/etc. based as much as GM's is domestically?? You're also looking at a very large, well funded, company that's now in retreat, not a smaller one advancing upon a "clean slate". Many domestic parts are still manufactured by the company and not outsourced.

..and just how many of GM's employees are union slugs (as some appear to view them)?? I'd really like to see those with that view last a week on the assembly line. An assembly line worker is very productive. The next step would be to automate the process even further ..if that's possible.


One real potential issue with the merging or folding of the giants ..hmm..would be ..potentially, part procurement for used cars that have no manufacturer. You may see a "forced" obsolescence of much of the current fleet.

Don't put it past them. We'll be on the hook for the pension fallout too.

 

[addyguy]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: XCELERATIONRULES
Americans haven't made a quality car since 1972.
I always bought Gm until they turned to [censored].
I rarely have repair bills on my Japenese cars.
The auto workers and their benefit package put the auto industry out of business.
So long.
I'll keep my Toyota.


My mom's family has been buying Ford products since the early 1900's, starting with the Model A.

My mom's dad owned five thunderbirds, 3 continentals, two F-150's, one F-250 and two different Ford tractors

Two Ford Y-blocks were fitted to two different boats of ours due to reliability and power. The one was a 1950's original that had never been apart (noisy bugger) and the other was a 425HP mill that would propel the 22' tripple-cockpit launch to in excess of 70Mph.

My parents have owned:
1. VW Bug
2. 1970's F-150
3. 1965 Mustang
4. Pinto
5. Fairlane
6. Fiat
7. 80's Caprice Wagon
8. '86 Olds Custom Cruiser Wagon
9. '89 Town Car
10. 67 Thunderbird with 427SOHC "Cammer"
11. 1998 Ford Expedition
12. 2000 Ford Expedition (current)
13. 2003 Lincoln Town Car (current)

The ONLY vehicles they have any complaints about were the Olds Wagon and the Pinto. Dad vowed never to buy another GM product after the Wagon.

Personally I've owned:
1. 1974 Old Cutlass Supreme
2. 1997 Ford Explorer
3. 1987 Mustang GT
4. 1988 F-250
5. 1989 Town Car (dad's old car)
6. 1982 Capri Black Magic (doesn't really count, I've never driven it, it's a body replacement for the Mustang).

The Lincoln has been an absolute GEM. ORIGINAL ball joints finally needed replacing this past summer.... On a car that had in excess of 300,000Km on it. Transmission is still original, shortblock is still original (I upgraded the top-end), and the rear main weeps (though it seems to have stopped with the M1 TDT) MAYBE 1L per 10,000Km........ The engine burns no oil. This car has made more trips from Ontario to the East Coast than I can count.

My Mustang was as close to zero maintenance as I could get. It was easy on everything except tires.

My F-250 had a timing gear failure due to an overheating event (my fault), which gave me an excuse to swap the engine out for a 302HO. Everything else was original on that truck save the brakes and tires.

Explorer needed a transfer case at 230,000Km, hub assembly for the drivers side at 150,000Km and maintenance items like brakes and tires a number of times. My sister owns it now and it's still going. Tranny needed a new valve body assembly and torque converter at 290,000Km, which was ~1,100 dollars. This was because of a non-lockup condition that was forcing the tranny into limp mode whenever it tried to go into O/D.

My parents experience with their two most recent vehicles (with the exception of the lower ball joints being replaced on the 2000 Expedition) has been event-free.

So as you can see, our experience has been quite different from yours.

Similar to you, my dad had a 1967 Mustng he bought used in 1970. Drove it 'till 1978, when it fell apart from rust - mechanically, according to him, it was perfect, and would have had about 150k miles on it.

Replaced it with a 1978 Chev. Malibu wagon with a 305 V-8. It was pretty well problems from day 1. It was the car that made my dad wow he would never buy another domestic car as long as he lived. Sadly, that was only about another 6 years, but he had a 1989 Tercel that he loved in that period!


I do agree that the unions seem to be raping the NA auto industry though.

 

[javacontour]

I was talking to one of my customers today and we've come up with a plan to help ALL corporations, not just the domestic automakers.

Since outsourcing labor isn't really working, and outsourcing government is likely illegal (unconstitutional, yeah I know some call centers for govt activity were outsourced, but that's not what I'm talking about) how about we outsource management.

It seems like the entire executive team at Toyota makes less combined than the CEO of GM the last time I checked, and they seem to be more effective.

So let's outsource the executives, and leave the labor here

 

[ViragoBry]

The 'boy's club' at GM headquarters likely still needs to be thinned out. They keep shedding labor down low on the totem pole when what they really should be doing is lightening the load up top. When a company is failing, it's not the laborers' fault, it's the decision makers in the executive offices who are to blame. When people fail to do their jobs, they need to GO. GM is sinking...the execs need to be held accountable. But they seem convinced that pink slips at the labor end will put them back in the black. I disagree.

 

[globey]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: globey
Originally Posted By: Ed_T
Do not many "foreign" car badges now have and have had manufacturing plants in the U.S.?

Two out of the three Toy's in our drvieway were "made" here, in KY, IIRC.


Yes, that's what they want you to think...that you are still supporting the U.S. and its employees. GM employees over 100K while Toyota, the largest non-US employer employs 36K. Ten times is a bit of an exaggeration, but the number disparity grows from there.


What's the relative market share?
The contemporary figures appear to say that Toyota is about 66% of GM's sales. Now that would surely still mean a pretty decent gap ..but how many of Toyota's parts and engineering is outsources to offshore interests? That is, is Toyota engineering/R&D/etc. based as much as GM's is domestically?? You're also looking at a very large, well funded, company that's now in retreat, not a smaller one advancing upon a "clean slate". Many domestic parts are still manufactured by the company and not outsourced.

..and just how many of GM's employees are union slugs (as some appear to view them)?? I'd really like to see those with that view last a week on the assembly line. An assembly line worker is very productive. The next step would be to automate the process even further ..if that's possible.


One real potential issue with the merging or folding of the giants ..hmm..would be ..potentially, part procurement for used cars that have no manufacturer. You may see a "forced" obsolescence of much of the current fleet.

Don't put it past them. We'll be on the hook for the pension fallout too.


Gary, I don't have those numbers. I pulled those employment numbers from an Oct 08 figure. They compared the 2000 employment rates to the Oct 2008 numbers for all major auto makers that employ U.S. workers. Toyota was by far the largest...Nissan employs less than 14K. GM was the largest amongst the domestics but Ford wasn't too far behind. Even Chrysler had 66K. Remember, these are RETREATING employee numbers for the U.S. makers whereas the Japanese automakers have increased employee numbers. The gap is still significant, but it was major just a few years ago.

 

[PandaBear]

IMO if they fail, it would only means a change in ownership and cutting production. You won't see a sudden disappearance of 60% of the auto production supply overnight.

Now whether they will be making junks after they fail would be an entirely different story.

 

[Cutehumor]

the government could pass a law saying that only vehicles built in USA will be sold in the USA.

 

[Duffman77]

Originally Posted By: Cutehumor
the government could pass a law saying that only vehicles built in USA will be sold in the USA.


Where do people come up with this cr*p? Do you think there would be no consequences to such actions?

 

[Tornado Red]

Originally Posted By: Cutehumor
the government could pass a law saying that only vehicles built in USA will be sold in the USA.

It could. Such a law would be an incredibly stupid idea, but Congress has passed many stupid laws. In 1930 it enacted the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act, which raised tariffs so high that it blocked lots of imports. Of course this led to retaliatory tariffs by all our trading "partners"... global trade dropped sharply, and a short sharp recession turned into a global depression.

But there are politicians who are really against free trade; if free trade treaties were repealed, the benefits obtained since WWII could be reversed.

 

[artificialist]

My dad has become fed up with GM, because he had a headlight assembly fail. For some reason, you can't replace a $2 plastic connector and heat shrink the insulation. No! The whole $300 thing has to be replaced. Now the intermediate steering shaft is toast, just after the warranty ended.

My dad owned several cars that never gave him this much trouble.

Anyway, I get mad at American car companies that:
1. Build a ton of stuff in Mexico where wages are low, and environmental protection is very limited.
2. Whine that people are angry at them now, when they could have prevented a downturn over 20 years ago.
3. Have design flaws that aren't solved in a timely manner.

How many customers have said no to GM, due to the fact that their V6 intake manifold gaskets are junk?

How many people have said no to Ford because most of their smog and electronic engine control equipment fails so frequently?

How many people have said no to Chrysler because they have very few good overdrive transmissions?

And people also talk about Japan's legendary cars. Plenty of Japanese cars have been a pain.