I got a response from Purolator

[AHC]

Some interesting things I read and how I interpreted them. I should convey that my interpretation is obviously flawless.

1. He's new
Purolator let the company go to seed. R&D likely stopped. They purchased low quality materials. The CEO was maximizing profits and probably sleeping with his secretary. The old QA lead was left holding the bill and was sacked. This guy is so stressed out that he can't spell and he has no secretary to proofread his stuff because she's 'with child' in S America with the old CEO

2. He acknowledged a problem exists
Things are messed up and they need some time to figure out just how bad the jackals before them shat the bed. Of course secretaries are good for information but like we've determined, she's unavailable

3. They all but named this site as reference
Tearing apart filters in the garage while our loved ones shake their heads has paid off. Which proves that being crazy sometimes pays off. Insert Tom Cruise

4. There are many things that could cause this
We/I know filtration. The jackals who left this mess didn't or maybe they did but were operating in 'item 1 mode' far too long. Endless late nights ingesting large amounts of illegal substances (from S America) passed out under a table in the local gentlemen's club will tend to dampen motivation and judgment

5. They're not sure what is going on but are trying to finding out
Do you know how much work I have to sort this out? Want to help?
We're this close to gutting the entire oil filtration department. I have a wife and kids for God's sake.
Do you realize they left a dead horse in the lab before they left? Who does that? We think they were cooking meth!

I gotta lie down

 

[MrQuackers]

^^^^^^^^ I hope someone @ Purolator reads that ^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: sayjac

So it would appear the QM is right on target with his comment about social media. But it's much easier to go off the deep end and blame the QM for using the highly offensive term "social media".
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...res#Post3432665


I think it is Purolator's failure to acknowledge that BITOG exists, and so many tear pics are piling up here, that has our eyes rolling when we hear "social media".

Oh so it's not really that the QM could have been correctly using the term "social media" for Facebook where the link clearly shows said issue is posted, it's that the he didn't separately and specifically identify bitog in the post which he may or may not have been referring to. Got it. Even if he was referring to bitog as "social media", I still missed the immensely offensive portion of that term in the response.

Much like the typo, considering the OP never claimed to be writing on behalf of bitog and the QM was attempting to respond personally/directly to the OP's issue, seems like nitpick to me. The OP just happened to post his personal response here and as I said in my first post did so in a classy and thoughtful manner.

And one last thing to keep in mind behind all of it, Purolator has been owned by Mann&Hummel and Bosch since 2006, and solely by M&H since the first quarter of last year. Anything happening at Purolator is happening on their watch.

 

[HangFire]

The nitpick (that I stand by) also has to do with the several Facebook-posted complaints mentioning BITOG, while the responses never do. It is a consistent pattern of behavior. You can disagree with my interpretation if you like, but I still see it as dismissive, just another attempt to avoid calling attention to the real issue.

 

[Smcatub]

Originally Posted By: telecat


Furthermore, all you folks who have found tears in Purolators, have you noticed any effect on your engine's life, health or performance? Has a single one of you folks experienced a catastrophic engine failure? The proof is in the pudding, how many engines have thrown a rod, busted a crank, galled a cam and/or lifter or scored a bearing as a result of tear/tears in a filter?


That's not the point. The point is, we're paying for filters. If they have a hole in them, they're no longer filters. Just cans.

If I went to buy a bag of charcoal briquettes and got a bag of non-flamable rocks, I'd be upset. If I hired a company to install new windows, and came home to find they'd installed opaque wooden boards in place of my old windows, I'd be upset. And if I get an oil filter that cannot filter anything out of my oil due to a big hole in the media, I'd be upset at that, too.

But if you're happy paying money for things that cannot do what you bought them to do, have fun. In fact, if you're in the market for a new laptop let me know. I'll sell you an empty box of Rasin Bran for $400. It's not actually a laptop, but close in shape in size, so that's good enough, right?

 

[HangFire]

Originally Posted By: Smcatub

If I went to buy a bag of charcoal briquettes and got a bag of non-flamable rocks, I'd be upset.


Well, I think I understand the apologist's counter-argument. Since your BBQ grill was not harmed by the non-flammable rocks, you really have no reason to complain. Please calm down and stop wasting so much Internet bandwidth on this!

 

[telecat]

Originally Posted By: HangFire
The nitpick (that I stand by) also has to do with the several Facebook-posted complaints mentioning BITOG, while the responses never do. It is a consistent pattern of behavior. You can disagree with my interpretation if you like, but I still see it as dismissive, just another attempt to avoid calling attention to the real issue.
Is the issue the filters, or their being dismissive of anonymous goobers on an internet forum? Pick one. Puro is under no obligation to acknowledge BITOG's existence and your sense of entitlement is showing when you say they are.

 

[HangFire]

Lol I see their aversion to acknowledging BITOG as amusing, nothing more.

As for a sense of entitlement, endless [censored] matches with another member is not MY forte' here in the filters forum. Nor did I create a thread just to complain about persecution from those who disagree with me, just because they keep disagreeing with me.

A little self-examination may be in order, telecat.

 

[telecat]

Originally Posted By: HangFire
Lol I see their aversion to acknowledging BITOG as amusing, nothing more.

As for a sense of entitlement, endless [censored] matches with another member is not MY forte' here in the filters forum. Nor did I create a thread just to complain about persecution from those who disagree with me, just because they keep disagreeing with me.

A little self-examination may be in order, telecat.
Yeah, by all you sardines, shifting direction with each change of the current.

 

[SilverC6]

Originally Posted By: Smcatub
Originally Posted By: telecat


Furthermore, all you folks who have found tears in Purolators, have you noticed any effect on your engine's life, health or performance? Has a single one of you folks experienced a catastrophic engine failure? The proof is in the pudding, how many engines have thrown a rod, busted a crank, galled a cam and/or lifter or scored a bearing as a result of tear/tears in a filter?


That's not the point. The point is, we're paying for filters. If they have a hole in them, they're no longer filters. Just cans.

If I went to buy a bag of charcoal briquettes and got a bag of non-flamable rocks, I'd be upset. If I hired a company to install new windows, and came home to find they'd installed opaque wooden boards in place of my old windows, I'd be upset. And if I get an oil filter that cannot filter anything out of my oil due to a big hole in the media, I'd be upset at that, too.

But if you're happy paying money for things that cannot do what you bought them to do, have fun. In fact, if you're in the market for a new laptop let me know. I'll sell you an empty box of Rasin Bran for $400. It's not actually a laptop, but close in shape in size, so that's good enough, right?


By your exaggerated examples, it's clear that you don't understand the issue.

You are cutting open and examining a used oil filter at the end of its service life.

Sure it's going to be used up.

So your examples become:

- After grilling, you find that all the briquettes burned well except for two that didn't ignite properly.

- One of your 30 new energy efficient windows did not have the correct advertised R-value.

- Your disk drive on your Windows XP computer, after eight years of use, doesn't work like a new one.

- The box of Raisin Bran that you've enjoyed for the last three weeks is now empty and you can't have breakfast this morning.

There you go, fixed them for you.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: telecat
Originally Posted By: HangFire
The nitpick (that I stand by) also has to do with the several Facebook-posted complaints mentioning BITOG, while the responses never do. It is a consistent pattern of behavior. You can disagree with my interpretation if you like, but I still see it as dismissive, just another attempt to avoid calling attention to the real issue.
Is the issue the filters, or their being dismissive of anonymous goobers on an internet forum? Pick one. Puro is under no obligation to acknowledge BITOG's existence and your sense of entitlement is showing when you say they are.




Do you know anything at all about filtration,insolubles and their effect on wear.

If you did you'd be aware that a simple media tear isn't going to cause catastrophic failure however it will allow a significant amount of unfiltered oil to be pumped throughout the engine which can increase wear which won't even be noticeable until later in the engines shortened life.

If it's no big deal to you then use them. I couldn't care less. Personally I want to get what I paid for,and that's a filter that filters oil,not a filter that only filters some of the oil while allowing the unfiltered oil to be distributed all through my engine,increasing wear and shortening it's life.

If a 3000 mile interval is observed,in a clean engine then I'm confident that the oil doesn't accumulate enough insols to cause an issue,however running a torn filter for extended drains means agglomerated particulate will get through the tear and inevitably accelerate wear.
Now if a torn filter is being used in an engine that has deposits then there is a wear issue immediately because the new oil begins dissolving the deposits and those dissolved deposits aren't being filtered properly which again increases wear.
This isn't rocket science. It's common sense which apparently isn't to common anymore apparently.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Smcatub
Originally Posted By: telecat


Furthermore, all you folks who have found tears in Purolators, have you noticed any effect on your engine's life, health or performance? Has a single one of you folks experienced a catastrophic engine failure? The proof is in the pudding, how many engines have thrown a rod, busted a crank, galled a cam and/or lifter or scored a bearing as a result of tear/tears in a filter?


But if you're happy paying money for things that cannot do what you bought them to do, have fun. In fact, if you're in the market for a new laptop let me know. I'll sell you an empty box of Rasin Bran for $400. It's not actually a laptop, but close in shape in size, so that's good enough, right?


LOL !

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: HangFire
Lol I see their aversion to acknowledging BITOG as amusing, nothing more.

As for a sense of entitlement, endless [censored] matches with another member is not MY forte' here in the filters forum. Nor did I create a thread just to complain about persecution from those who disagree with me, just because they keep disagreeing with me.

A little self-examination may be in order, telecat.


+1000

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: SilverC6
Originally Posted By: Smcatub
Originally Posted By: telecat


Furthermore, all you folks who have found tears in Purolators, have you noticed any effect on your engine's life, health or performance? Has a single one of you folks experienced a catastrophic engine failure? The proof is in the pudding, how many engines have thrown a rod, busted a crank, galled a cam and/or lifter or scored a bearing as a result of tear/tears in a filter?


That's not the point. The point is, we're paying for filters. If they have a hole in them, they're no longer filters. Just cans.

If I went to buy a bag of charcoal briquettes and got a bag of non-flamable rocks, I'd be upset. If I hired a company to install new windows, and came home to find they'd installed opaque wooden boards in place of my old windows, I'd be upset. And if I get an oil filter that cannot filter anything out of my oil due to a big hole in the media, I'd be upset at that, too.

But if you're happy paying money for things that cannot do what you bought them to do, have fun. In fact, if you're in the market for a new laptop let me know. I'll sell you an empty box of Rasin Bran for $400. It's not actually a laptop, but close in shape in size, so that's good enough, right?


By your exaggerated examples, it's clear that you don't understand the issue.

You are cutting open and examining a used oil filter at the end of its service life.

Sure it's going to be used up.

So your examples become:

- After grilling, you find that all the briquettes burned well except for two that didn't ignite properly.

- One of your 30 new energy efficient windows did not have the correct advertised R-value.

- Your disk drive on your Windows XP computer, after eight years of use, doesn't work like a new one.

- The box of Raisin Bran that you've enjoyed for the last three weeks is now empty and you can't have breakfast this morning.

There you go, fixed them for you.



Not the same analogy. Filters are not supposed to have tears, even at the end of life. Your analogy is trying to say finding tears after x,xxx miles is expected because the filter is "used up". That's ridiculous and absurd.

 

[ThirdeYe]

Originally Posted By: Smcatub
Originally Posted By: telecat


Furthermore, all you folks who have found tears in Purolators, have you noticed any effect on your engine's life, health or performance? Has a single one of you folks experienced a catastrophic engine failure? The proof is in the pudding, how many engines have thrown a rod, busted a crank, galled a cam and/or lifter or scored a bearing as a result of tear/tears in a filter?


That's not the point. The point is, we're paying for filters. If they have a hole in them, they're no longer filters. Just cans.

If I went to buy a bag of charcoal briquettes and got a bag of non-flamable rocks, I'd be upset. If I hired a company to install new windows, and came home to find they'd installed opaque wooden boards in place of my old windows, I'd be upset. And if I get an oil filter that cannot filter anything out of my oil due to a big hole in the media, I'd be upset at that, too.

But if you're happy paying money for things that cannot do what you bought them to do, have fun. In fact, if you're in the market for a new laptop let me know. I'll sell you an empty box of Rasin Bran for $400. It's not actually a laptop, but close in shape in size, so that's good enough, right?

 

[stickybuns]

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Note he said "root cause" not just cause.

The cause appears to be the "V" spread as it has been called...

The ROOT cause is whatever is causing the media to be assembled with the wide "V" spread, it could be a process or a hardware malfunction or some combination of factors.


A simple easy fix would be to use thicker cellulose media. When something breaks, you make it thicker, Engineering 101. Decrease mesh density slightly to maintain filtration and low delta-pressure. Probably adds a couple of pennies per unit to change to the new paper.

Its not wrong to blame the V-spread theory. Sound reasoning. Still, if your machines you invested millions of dollars in do this all the friggin time, then use thicker paper. Can I have an Amen Duh !?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: stickybuns
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Note he said "root cause" not just cause.

The cause appears to be the "V" spread as it has been called...

The ROOT cause is whatever is causing the media to be assembled with the wide "V" spread, it could be a process or a hardware malfunction or some combination of factors.


A simple easy fix would be to use thicker cellulose media. When something breaks, you make it thicker, Engineering 101. Decrease mesh density slightly to maintain filtration and low delta-pressure. Probably adds a couple of pennies per unit to change to the new paper.

Its not wrong to blame the V-spread theory. Sound reasoning. Still, if your machines you invested millions of dollars in do this all the friggin time, then use thicker paper. Can I have an Amen Duh !?


I doubt Purolator has changed the media formula in the last year ... it's possible however that they got a bad batch of media material that wasn't manufactured per drawing specifications and the material is more susceptible to tearing. You can have a perfect drawing and specification for a design, but if you don't manufacture the product per those specs then it's quality can suffer. Throw that in along with a large V-spread on the pleats and you have a formula for tearing.

It's been reported more than once that the number of pleats has been a little less in these models that are tearing. When you decrease the number of pleats, then the V-spread must increase on the pleats. But one thing seen over and over again is that the two pleats next to the seam are always spread apart quite a bit compared to the rest of the pleats, and that inherently causes large V-spread.

My bet is if Purolator made the pleat spacing even all the way around the filter and kept the V-spread small that it would fix the tearing issue.

 

[SilverC6]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
Originally Posted By: Smcatub
Originally Posted By: telecat


Furthermore, all you folks who have found tears in Purolators, have you noticed any effect on your engine's life, health or performance? Has a single one of you folks experienced a catastrophic engine failure? The proof is in the pudding, how many engines have thrown a rod, busted a crank, galled a cam and/or lifter or scored a bearing as a result of tear/tears in a filter?


That's not the point. The point is, we're paying for filters. If they have a hole in them, they're no longer filters. Just cans.

If I went to buy a bag of charcoal briquettes and got a bag of non-flamable rocks, I'd be upset. If I hired a company to install new windows, and came home to find they'd installed opaque wooden boards in place of my old windows, I'd be upset. And if I get an oil filter that cannot filter anything out of my oil due to a big hole in the media, I'd be upset at that, too.

But if you're happy paying money for things that cannot do what you bought them to do, have fun. In fact, if you're in the market for a new laptop let me know. I'll sell you an empty box of Rasin Bran for $400. It's not actually a laptop, but close in shape in size, so that's good enough, right?


By your exaggerated examples, it's clear that you don't understand the issue.

You are cutting open and examining a used oil filter at the end of its service life.

Sure it's going to be used up.

So your examples become:

- After grilling, you find that all the briquettes burned well except for two that didn't ignite properly.

- One of your 30 new energy efficient windows did not have the correct advertised R-value.

- Your disk drive on your Windows XP computer, after eight years of use, doesn't work like a new one.

- The box of Raisin Bran that you've enjoyed for the last three weeks is now empty and you can't have breakfast this morning.

There you go, fixed them for you.



Not the same analogy. Filters are not supposed to have tears, even at the end of life. Your analogy is trying to say finding tears after x,xxx miles is expected because the filter is "used up". That's ridiculous and absurd.



My analogies are the same as yours without the drama.

A Purolator with a tear still filters your oil, in its entirety, in a multi-pass automotive lubrication system.

It just may take a second or third trip through the oil pump.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: SilverC6
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: SilverC6

By your exaggerated examples, it's clear that you don't understand the issue.

You are cutting open and examining a used oil filter at the end of its service life.

Sure it's going to be used up.

So your examples become:

- After grilling, you find that all the briquettes burned well except for two that didn't ignite properly.

- One of your 30 new energy efficient windows did not have the correct advertised R-value.

- Your disk drive on your Windows XP computer, after eight years of use, doesn't work like a new one.

- The box of Raisin Bran that you've enjoyed for the last three weeks is now empty and you can't have breakfast this morning.

There you go, fixed them for you.


Not the same analogy. Filters are not supposed to have tears, even at the end of life. Your analogy is trying to say finding tears after x,xxx miles is expected because the filter is "used up". That's ridiculous and absurd.


My analogies are the same as yours without the drama.

A Purolator with a tear still filters your oil, in its entirety, in a multi-pass automotive lubrication system.

It just may take a second or third trip through the oil pump.


Your analogies aren't even close - how does an empty cereal box equate to a defective oil filter? - LOL

.

What's your definition of a "used up" filter? ... one that has tears in it and that is to be expected because it's "used up". You don't even understand your own attempt at trying to make an analogy why tears in an oil filter are no different that other products that are defective and don't work as designed.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: SilverC6

A Purolator with a tear still filters your oil, in its entirety, in a multi-pass automotive lubrication system.

It just may take a second or third trip through the oil pump.


Not per design, and not what people really want to pay money for and use on their vehicles. ... except for a few guys who don't really care how good an oil filter works.