Hyundai price gouging new EV battery, or so it seems??

[OVERKILL]

We have an unaffordable car market making oversized vehicles. That’s better to you?

That seems to be a pretty shallow take on a very deep and complex subject, no? Yes, there are problems with regulation that has essentially driven the US and Canada to becoming "truck centric" (not the case in Europe, which is also part of the West). However, I fail to see how allowing unchecked dumping of Chinese products on the market is in any way a solution, or even beneficial. Rather, I'd say it is quite the opposite.

 

[Torrid]

That seems to be a pretty shallow take on a very deep and complex subject, no? Yes, there are problems with regulation that has essentially driven the US and Canada to becoming "truck centric" (not the case in Europe, which is also part of the West). However, I fail to see how allowing unchecked dumping of Chinese products on the market is in any way a solution, or even beneficial. Rather, I'd say it is quite the opposite.

Oh I understand that side of it. Ban it from here altogether then, but adding a tariff to make it less appealing to end up in that situation just means we are still whores. We have price.

I’d almost kill for Europe’s car market. That is what I like.

 

[demarpaint]

That seems to be a pretty shallow take on a very deep and complex subject, no? Yes, there are problems with regulation that has essentially driven the US and Canada to becoming "truck centric" (not the case in Europe, which is also part of the West). However, I fail to see how allowing unchecked dumping of Chinese products on the market is in any way a solution, or even beneficial. Rather, I'd say it is quite the opposite.

I agree, tax the hell out of them, that will take that garbage coming from China right out of the market. lol

 

[OVERKILL]

Oh I understand that side of it. Ban it from here altogether then, but adding a tariff to make it less appealing to end up in that situation just means we are still whores. We have price.

If we go back to my addict example, let's say we (the West) have become addicted to an expensive and powerful domestically-produced painkiller (trucks) for treating everything from headaches to general aches and pains (everything motive related) as a result of the system (doctors) prescribing it for everything, and regulation encouraging this. The solution isn't to say "screw it", scrap the regulation and allow flooding of the market with Chinese Fentanyl for pennies, handing them a dangerous and potentially fatal monopoly. It should be to change the regulation and the system so that this isn't the result while still keeping the Fentanyl out. (Crap analogy but I think you get the gist).

Europe doesn't have the truck presence situation that we have in Canada and the US (I expect there will naturally be disagreement on whether this is a problem or not). This is as a result of them having more expensive fuel and considerably different regulation than we have in North America. As you noted, their domestic marques have successfully sold smaller cars (particularly diesels) in the European market forever, and competitively.

I guess the bigger question is: How does a society whose existence is now predicated on massive and perpetual consumption, break that addiction and shift to something more sustainable, without invoking total systematic collapse?

 

[Torrid]

If we go back to my addict example, let's say we (the West) have become addicted to an expensive and powerful domestically-produced painkiller (trucks) for treating everything from headaches to general aches and pains (everything motive related) as a result of the system (doctors) prescribing it for everything, and regulation encouraging this. The solution isn't to say "screw it", scrap the regulation and allow flooding of the market with Chinese Fentanyl for pennies, handing them a dangerous and potentially fatal monopoly. It should be to change the regulation and the system so that this isn't the result while still keeping the Fentanyl out. (Crap analogy but I think you get the gist).

Europe doesn't have the truck presence situation that we have in Canada and the US (I expect there will naturally be disagreement on whether this is a problem or not). This is as a result of them having more expensive fuel and considerably different regulation than we have in North America. As you noted, their domestic marques have successfully sold smaller cars (particularly diesels) in the European market forever, and competitively.

I guess the bigger question is: How does a society whose existence is now predicated on massive and perpetual consumption, break that addiction and shift to something more sustainable, without invoking total systematic collapse?

That’s not what I said at all, but your last line is somewhat accurate. I don’t particularly want Chinese vehicles, I just want more small car options that are interesting. They’ve been shaping the market to make it what it is so maybe it’s time to force smaller vehicles not by bringing Chinese ones in but by limiting size and weight of vehicles. Large vehicles wouldn’t have naturally been a thing without intervention and regulation. The large truck crowd would be offended but like your drug example they don’t realize it to be a problem and think free will has taken them there. Those that tow go on about how they need a truck, but recreational towing even shows how much of an excess and spending problem people have. Forget necessity. I want, I need.

 

[Kiwi_ME]

I agree, tax the hell out of them, that will take that garbage coming from China right out of the market. lol

Keep rocking that 1-star safety rating!

 

[OVERKILL]

That’s not what I said at all

I wasn't characterizing what you said, just expanding on what I had already stated, furthering the discourse.

I don’t particularly want Chinese vehicles, I just want more small car options that are interesting.

Agreed, hence my agreement with you about Europe, a very different market, but a Western market nonetheless.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

I, personally, don't have an issue with considerable tariffs placed on goods dumped by The Empire on foreign soil. The currency games they play to manipulate valuation are simply part of their very well-planned "long-game" for global domination, part of which is driven, and enabled, by them having considerably more people than the West.

China has no plans to bend a knee to the US. Their goal is simply to continue to play the game they've been playing successfully for decades. To diminish the role of the West by inserting themselves and undermining Western support, growing their own. Once their economic advantage and presence is large enough, they will focus on exceeding the US in military capacity and usurping the US as the defacto global superpower. All this can be done without a single shot being fired because it's all economic and so much has been outsourced to China that a conflict with them would devastate the West, and they know that.

The west is an addict and China is our dealer. There's no quitting this cold turkey, the withdrawl would be fatal. We pretend we want to quit, and we say we want to quit, and maybe we think we do, but we are so deeply addicted that our actions always betray our words. The question is whether we allow this to reach its natural conclusion, the death of the West and the American Empire, like so many before it, or if we take the difficult and uncomfortable steps necessary to wean ourselves off this intoxicating poison, struggle through detox and recovery and ultimately come out the other side. I have little faith that we'll be able to achieve the latter.

China does not have a rights protecting philosophy so they are doomed to fail. Don't give them too much credit.

 

[demarpaint]

Keep rocking that 1-star safety rating!
View attachment 194367 View attachment 194368

Will do! In fact I'm thinking of adding another one to the fleet.

 

[OVERKILL]

China does not have a rights protecting philosophy so they are doomed to fail. Don't give them too much credit.

Every Empire is doomed to fail, it's not a matter of if, but a matter of when. History shows us this. The West is simultaneously fuelling China's rise and our own decline through our consumerism and inability to stick to the philosophy you just outlined, that of rights protection. We are hyprocrites, bleating wistfully about things not made in the West anymore, condemning their outsourcing to places without Western rights and standards. While, simultaneously, we uncontrollably consume their products at an ever increasing rate. Western companies, like Tesla, heralded as "American success stories" embracing China as a key supplier. As @Torrid notes, we have a price, and we are willing to set aside our scruples and feigned moral outrage if the price is right.

 

[Trav]

Many people would and have sell/sold their own kids for a price.

 

[Danno]

And another IONIQ5 Hyundai battery damaged, resulting in a complete car write-off.
Interesting story, same timelines as the 1st.

 

[OVERKILL]

And another IONIQ5 Hyundai battery damaged, resulting in a complete car write-off.
Interesting story, same timelines as the 1st.

It does indeed appear that the battery is $46,000, so the fact that this immediately writes off the car shouldn't be surprising. The problem is the price of the battery here.

 

[Mainia]

.........

 

[Torrid]

It does indeed appear that the battery is $46,000, so the fact that this immediately writes off the car shouldn't be surprising. The problem is the price of the battery here.

Considering it's nearly 3 times the cost of the Model 3 battery it's beyond ridiculous. I get if that's what it's costing Hyundai to build these things, but they need to get some costs under control if that's the case. That and better shielding to protect said battery.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Every Empire is doomed to fail, it's not a matter of if, but a matter of when. History shows us this. The West is simultaneously fuelling China's rise and our own decline through our consumerism and inability to stick to the philosophy you just outlined, that of rights protection. We are hyprocrites, bleating wistfully about things not made in the West anymore, condemning their outsourcing to places without Western rights and standards. While, simultaneously, we uncontrollably consume their products at an ever increasing rate. Western companies, like Tesla, heralded as "American success stories" embracing China as a key supplier. As @Torrid notes, we have a price, and we are willing to set aside our scruples and feigned moral outrage if the price is right.

Hard to disagree with your analysis, because it reflects history. I would add 2 things. One, companies in the EV business are competing for a scarce resource necessitating China as a critical component vendor. Two, as we have discussed before, the question is more of the will to change vs ability to execute. For the last 30+ years outsourcing was the preferred methodology in manufacturing; recent history has shown benefits in vertical integration specifically in chip firmware.

It will only start with corporate CEOs, but if they can hire Chinese talent easier and cheaper then why not?. We HAVE to value education far more. Do we have the will to make the requisite investments? Or do we cede the market to others?

I say get into action.

 

[demarpaint]

Many people would and have sell/sold their own kids for a price.

Yep, and totally avoidable by doing your homework before buying and/or not rushing out like a mad man to be an early adopter of something this new. Losing money is one of the best teachers in the world. Hopefully those buyers learned from their mistake, and share it with others looking to race out and buy one this early in the game.

 

[OVERKILL]

Considering it's nearly 3 times the cost of the Model 3 battery it's beyond ridiculous. I get if that's what it's costing Hyundai to build these things, but they need to get some costs under control if that's the case. That and better shielding to protect said battery.

Bingo.

Looks like BMW has taken a much better approach:

 

[OVERKILL]

Hard to disagree with your analysis, because it reflects history. I would add 2 things. One, companies in the EV business are competing for a scarce resource necessitating China as a critical component vendor. Two, as we have discussed before, the question is more of the will to change vs ability to execute. For the last 30+ years outsourcing was the preferred methodology in manufacturing; recent history has shown benefits in vertical integration specifically in chip firmware.

It will only start with corporate CEOs, but if they can hire Chinese talent easier and cheaper then why not?. We HAVE to value education far more. Do we have the will to make the requisite investments? Or do we cede the market to others?

I say get into action.

I'm hopeful efforts like expanding Ontario's "ring of fire" which is blessed with considerable quantities of critical minerals currently monopolized by China, will help turn the tide. But, as you note, this requires corporations to get onboard. The question of course is "will they?".

 

[JeffKeryk]

I'm hopeful efforts like expanding Ontario's "ring of fire" which is blessed with considerable quantities of critical minerals currently monopolized by China, will help turn the tide. But, as you note, this requires corporations to get onboard. The question of course is "will they?".

Private enterprise is key. That's capitalism in a nutshell.