Hydrogen Neue Klasse EV?

[alarmguy]

The only way hydrogen would be feasible is if you had a pure source of hydrogen like Jupiter. Hydrogen takes twice the energy to convert hydrogen vs gasoline. This is pure mathematics. Hydrogen makes up .000005% of Earths atmosphere and is primarily bonded to other elements. There's a reason that Shell dumped all of their hydrogen filling stations. Now that the Toyota Mirai is coming off lease a mini black market has sprung up with people trying to get money for their hydrogen fill up cards. Hydrogen prices are now in the $27 kg to fill from what a number of sources have said online.

The earth used to be flat too. You're looking for H2 in the wrong place. Natural H2 is in the ground and self generating. However natural is just one of many possibilities.

“We calculate the energy content of this estimated recoverable amount of hydrogen to be roughly twice the amount of energy in all the proven natural gas reserves on Earth,”
https://www.usgs.gov/news/national-...first-ever-map-potential-geologic-hydrogen-us

Nothing is ever impossible until it is. However we may not be alive to see the possible much like our ancestors.
I havent seen any examples on how the electric grid is going to replace every gas station in the USA
It will be an exciting future, one which we will not see.

 

[kschachn]

The earth used to be flat too. You're looking for H2 in the wrong place. Natural H2 is in the ground and self generating.

“We calculate the energy content of this estimated recoverable amount of hydrogen to be roughly twice the amount of energy in all the proven natural gas reserves on Earth,”
https://www.usgs.gov/news/national-...first-ever-map-potential-geologic-hydrogen-us

Nothing is ever impossible until it is. However we may not be alive to see the possible much like our ancestors.
I havent seen any examples on how the electric grid is going to replace every gas station in the USA

It's not just the unfavorable thermodynamics of terrestrial H2 production, it is the storage and distribution. These aren't just things that "have to be overcome" like the Wright brothers overcame flight, it is directly related to the material properties of hydrogen. A compressed gas of ridiculously low energy density makes for a poor motor vehicle fuel. It's as simple as that.

 

[97prizm]

The earth used to be flat too. You're looking for H2 in the wrong place. Natural H2 is in the ground and self generating. However natural is just one of many possibilities.

“We calculate the energy content of this estimated recoverable amount of hydrogen to be roughly twice the amount of energy in all the proven natural gas reserves on Earth,”
https://www.usgs.gov/news/national-...first-ever-map-potential-geologic-hydrogen-us

Nothing is ever impossible until it is. However we may not be alive to see the possible much like our ancestors.
I havent seen any examples on how the electric grid is going to replace every gas station in the USA
It will be an exciting future, one which we will not see.

Around 2013ish on an episode of top Gear Jeremy Clarkson stated that Britain consumes 104% of the electricity it currently produces. A chunk comes from Germany. The USA and European countries don't produce enough electricity to supply 130ish million vehicles. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. The second part is the energy required to separate hydrogen. Most hydrogen today comes from methane from reading. It's still consumes alot of energy to break it apart and store it in tanks. There are advancements but you can't change the laws of physics.

 

[Sam_Julier]

Gents,

Please do let this dissolve into bickering, or postulate theory instead of responding directly to a comment. Some of the responses are getting airy and off topic.

Thanks,

Sam

 

[goblin]

...
I havent seen any examples on how the electric grid is going to replace every gas station in the USA...

Respectfully, from the little I read from you in this thread - you're doing quite well in not seeing things you're set on not seeing, so the above criteria has little weight

As of 100 years ago, the average American home has a gas station for EVs in every room. It's called an electrical outlet.

As for the grid and supposed strain this would put on it - ChatGpt alone consumes 40 million kw per day. That's enough to charge a million EVs daily. And chatgpt has been a thing only in the last few years, so no specific electricity production arrangements have been done overnight.

The link you provided is interesting, but your cherry-picking skills are even more so. I see this, in the same article:

"...However, the model makes no predictions about how or where this hydrogen is distributed in the subsurface. The authors note that much of it is likely too deep, too far offshore or in accumulations too small to be economically recoverable..."

So yes, it would be great if we could use it. And the day we get able to - we will. It's just that setting up the premise of the discussion to an artificial "NOTHING ELSE WILL WORK !!!" is ridiculous. And throwing a wannabe scientific veil on it while ignoring basic facts won't make it work.

PS: I wrote this as Sam was posting. I hereby submit that I exercised extreme self-control

 

[JeffKeryk]

It's not just the unfavorable thermodynamics of terrestrial H2 production, it is the storage and distribution. These aren't just things that "have to be overcome" like the Wright brothers overcame flight, it is directly related to the material properties of hydrogen. A compressed gas of ridiculously low energy density makes for a poor motor vehicle fuel. It's as simple as that.

Given all the H2 challenges, I am stumped understanding why car companies put so many resources into an H2 fueled vehicle.
I wonder how much the Murai endeavour cost Toyota? The few owners I spoke with hated them.

 

[alarmguy]

Around 2013ish on an episode of top Gear Jeremy Clarkson stated that Britain consumes 104% of the electricity it currently produces. A chunk comes from Germany. The USA and European countries don't produce enough electricity to supply 130ish million vehicles. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. The second part is the energy required to separate hydrogen. Most hydrogen today comes from methane from reading. It's still consumes alot of energy to break it apart and store it in tanks. There are advancements but you can't change the laws of physics.

I think you know Im not "bickering" with you. If that comment was directed to us? We are on the same page with many subjects. Just discussing. Pros and Cons.

 

[alarmguy]

Given all the H2 challenges, I am stumped understanding why car companies put so many resources into an H2 fueled vehicle.
I wonder how much the Murai endeavour cost Toyota? The few owners I spoke with hated them.

Ahhhh... but isnt that the "key" ?
Maybe they know something we dont? or something we wont acknowledge?
Maybe some said the same thing about Tesla 15 years ago?

I wonder if one anyone thought about national security too? Our entire energy structure based on only one source, electricity. Which as of right now we dont know where we will get it to power our nation anymore then H2 (or some other technology)

 

[kschachn]

Given all the H2 challenges, I am stumped understanding why car companies put so many resources into an H2 fueled vehicle.
I wonder how much the Murai endeavour cost Toyota? The few owners I spoke with hated them.

Well I guess I’m not stumped, lots of companies do lots of things for less than entirely technical or scientifically reasonable reasons.

 

[OVERKILL]

Well I guess I’m not stumped, lots of companies do lots of things for less than entirely technical or scientifically reasonable reasons.

Yup, Chrysler made a jet-powered car "back in the day". There were several attempts, of varying degrees of success, to engineer and manufacture cars that could also be boats.

Given the money that's being dumped into the "hydrogen economy" by government, it should surprise nobody that OEM's have been clammering to get a piece of the action (funding).

An example, the Newfoundland/Germany Hydrogen alliance, which was supposed to generate hydrogen with wind turbines, then make amonia with it and ship it to Germany, where it would be consumed to generate electricity:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/wind-hydrogen-placentia-bay-1.7503543

These are the fever dreams of delusional government, like the architects of Ontario's Green Energy Act, where serious engineering and economic problems get completely ignored in favour of flashy headlines and "green" optics. When the wheels come off, it's only taxpayer money, and we appear to have short memories.

 

[OVERKILL]

The link you provided is interesting, but your cherry-picking skills are even more so. I see this, in the same article:

"...However, the model makes no predictions about how or where this hydrogen is distributed in the subsurface. The authors note that much of it is likely too deep, too far offshore or in accumulations too small to be economically recoverable..."

So yes, it would be great if we could use it. And the day we get able to - we will. It's just that setting up the premise of the discussion to an artificial "NOTHING ELSE WILL WORK !!!" is ridiculous. And throwing a wannabe scientific veil on it while ignoring basic facts won't make it work.

PS: I wrote this as Sam was posting. I hereby submit that I exercised extreme self-control

I mean, there are a LOT of "optimistic" words used in that article. Just from the opener:

The map is the first of its kind at continental scale anywhere, showing likely underground areas to explore for geologic hydrogen. It reveals areas of interest that have the potential to hold accumulations of geologic hydrogen, including a mid-continent region that covers Kansas, Iowa, Minnesota and Michigan, the Four Corners states of Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico and Utah, the California coast, and areas along the Eastern seaboard.

“For decades, the conventional wisdom was that naturally occurring hydrogen did not accumulate in sufficient quantities to be used for energy purposes,” said Sarah Ryker, USGS associate director for energy and minerals. “This map is tantalizing because it shows that several parts of the U.S. could have a subsurface hydrogen resource after all.”

The following section is just as full of hopium:

In a recent paper, USGS geologists Geoff Ellis and Sarah Gelman estimated large potential for — and large uncertainty about — the amount of hydrogen accumulations in the world. “We calculate the energy content of this estimated recoverable amount of hydrogen to be roughly twice the amount of energy in all the proven natural gas reserves on Earth,” Ellis and Gelman wrote in their recent Science Advances paper.

However, the model makes no predictions about how or where this hydrogen is distributed in the subsurface. The authors note that much of it is likely too deep, too far offshore or in accumulations too small to be economically recoverable.

“We showed there is a significant potential for geologic hydrogen as an emerging energy resource. The next logical step was to find where it might be in the United States – and for that, we had to develop a methodology, which we applied first to the lower 48 states,” Gelman said.

---

Quoting myself from the previous thread on this subject:

This article was shared by an industrial chemist friend of mine (chemical engineer), who is also part of our nuclear group. I think it does an excellent job separating the hype and fiction from the reality of the geologic hydrogen space and providing some much-needed insight on those realities.

https://h2sciencecoalition.com/blog/everything-you-need-to-know-about-natural-or-geologic-hydrogen/

A solid paragraph that leads the rest of the article:


Despite recent high-profile findings from France to Albania, the world’s only documented hydrogen producer well is located in the village of Bourakébougou, Mali.

It produces almost pure hydrogen from a shallow reservoir layer at a very low rate of about 5 to 50 tonnes per year. This is equivalent to 0.3 to 3 barrels of oil per day – a power output less than a tenth of a single medium-sized wind turbine [2].

With the exception of Mali, no findings of geologic hydrogen to date have flow tests measuring the rate at which a well can extract hydrogen from underground and thus demonstrating evidence that hydrogen can be produced commercially.

Only the finding in Mali can be firmly considered a “discovery”, while all others are speculative in nature: natural “seeps” where some hydrogen has been detected to leak out from the earth’s subsurface, or “shows” where some traces of hydrogen have been observed during the drilling of a well. Neither of these terms indicate evidence of producible hydrogen.

 

[97prizm]

Ahhhh... but isnt that the "key" ?
Maybe they know something we dont? or something we wont acknowledge?
Maybe some said the same thing about Tesla 15 years ago?

I wonder if one anyone thought about national security too? Our entire energy structure based on only one source, electricity. Which as of right now we dont know where we will get it to power our nation anymore then H2 (or some other technology)

Before Shell closed all of their hydrogen filling stations there were at least a decent amount of options. The Mirai came with a $15,000 hydrogen fuel card. A few people who had a filling station close by with not much in the way of a long distance drive essentially got "free" fuel over the course of their lease. I'm not aware of anyone that purchased a Mirai outright. The hydrogen fuel cards were supposed to be deactivated upon turn in of the lease but apparently a few fell through the cracks and still work. How Toyota created an accidental black market for hydrogen fuel cards

 

[alarmguy]

Just ran across this. Possibilities and possibilities who knows
https://www.wallstinvest.com/primar...5L-1196476604-1&dicbo=v4-GNluJ5L-1196476604-1

 

[goblin]

Just ran across this. Possibilities and possibilities who knows
https://www.wallstinvest.com/primary-hydrogen/lpa-en?utm_source=Outbrain&utm_campaign=%28PRIMARY%29+USA+MB+-+Inv%2FPer&utm_content=“Deep+Hydrogen”+to+Power+Next-Generation+Spacecraft+and+Transform+Global+Economy&utm_term=Fox+News_Fox+News&OutbrainClickId=v4-GNluJ5L-1196476604-1&dicbo=v4-GNluJ5L-1196476604-1

Possibilities indeed. Why would they lie ? I, for one, submit that they wouldn't

 

[rijndael]

As for the grid and supposed strain this would put on it - ChatGpt alone consumes 40 million kw per day. That's enough to charge a million EVs daily. And chatgpt has been a thing only in the last few years, so no specific electricity production arrangements have been done overnight.

I respectfully disagree. I live in a data center alley and work in data centers. We are about to build a nuclear powered data center complex. There is not enough power. There is a constant battle between neighborhoods, and industrial areas zone for data centers. That is contributing to the data center sprawl.

Grid problems:
https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/...using-distortions-in-us-power-grid-bloomberg/

Nuclear onsite:
https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/...pus-in-surry-virginia-gets-rezoning-approval/

 

[goblin]

"Overnight" was the keyword

I of course agree and acnowledge that data centers will need their own power infrastructure.
It's just that no one has said "...gee, this can NEVER be done, let's switch to mechanical CPUs with vacuum switches, Mig fighters have those !" (funny thing, they did, btw). People are working on solutions and not doing it is not even considered an option.

Yet in my book, Ai's immediate impact on energy infrastructure is orders of magnitude bigger than EVs'.

 

[alarmguy]

View attachment 275440
Possibilities indeed. Why would they lie ? I, for one, submit that they wouldn't

Good point, however it doesn't mean it doesn't contain facts.
Here is a non paid example
https://www.reuters.com/sustainabil...conomy-could-transform-energy-use-2024-07-25/

and yes, the one below is an industry publication but doesn't mean it isn't true
https://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/germanys-hydrogen-market/8563807/

BMW and other car makers have explored H2 for some time now, they look at possibilities which is the only thing that discoveries (or failures) are made.

Just like the USA pays people to buy EV's with a free $7,500 downpayment as a gift from taxpayers.

"German Government incentives and infrastructure​

In recent years, the German government has signaled a clear shift to hydrogen power by subsidizing businesses as they transition to it.

In total, the government has earmarked $17 billion in subsidies to accelerate the transition to net zero.

To support this, the centers help companies in their development, specifically within the transport sector. "

Below is more than I care to know and did not read it
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2211467X24000683

 

[OVERKILL]

Good point, however it doesn't mean it doesn't contain facts.
Here is a non paid example
https://www.reuters.com/sustainabil...conomy-could-transform-energy-use-2024-07-25/

and yes, the one below is an industry publication but doesn't mean it isn't true
https://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/germanys-hydrogen-market/8563807/

BMW and other car makers have explored H2 for some time now, they look at possibilities which is the only thing that discoveries (or failures) are made.

Just like the USA pays people to buy EV's with a free $7,500 downpayment as a gift from taxpayers.

Yes, when there's free taxpayer money available, all kinds of things get "explored" that wouldn't be in any serious way if the companies were directly funding it.

"German Government incentives and infrastructure​

In recent years, the German government has signaled a clear shift to hydrogen power by subsidizing businesses as they transition to it.

In total, the government has earmarked $17 billion in subsidies to accelerate the transition to net zero.

To support this, the centers help companies in their development, specifically within the transport sector. "

Below is more than I care to know and did not read it
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2211467X24000683

Germany's decisions on energy probably shouldn't be the barometer here. Energiewende has been a disaster, they eliminated all their nuclear, and their plan to import hydrogen from Newfoundland is now basically dead in the water.

Here's Germany right now:

And here's neighboring France:

 

[goblin]

Good point, however it doesn't mean it doesn't contain facts...

Well, this DOES raise the bar does it

My avatar is my late Chow Chow. Best dog ever. Had a cat's personality. It also could talk, solve differential equations, and could read sheet music like a newspaper - on prima vista, six characters per barline.

The above contains untruths and some bona fide nonsense, but it doesn't mean it doesn't contain facts.

Now, misunderstand us not, we're not out to get you. Most will agree that hydrogen vehicles will have some place in the food chain - Humanity is good as doing wonderful things and persist into crazy ideas. The money invested into this research will still be useful, because of all the other things that will be figured out along the process, and used elsewhere.
It's just that the way you persist into making it the one and only solution for the future, braving the storm of reality every step of the way, is cute. We're guilty.

 

[kschachn]

Well, this DOES raise the bar does it

My avatar is my late Chow Chow. Best dog ever. Had a cat's personality. It also could talk, solve differential equations, and could read sheet music like a newspaper - on prima vista, six characters per barline.

The above contains untruths and some bona fide nonsense, but it doesn't mean it doesn't contain facts.

Now, misunderstand us not, we're not out to get you. Most will agree that hydrogen vehicles will have some place in the food chain - Humanity is good as doing wonderful things and persist into crazy ideas. The money invested into this research will still be useful, because of all the other things that will be figured out along the process, and used elsewhere.
It's just that the way you persist into making it the one and only solution for the future, braving the storm of reality every step of the way, is cute. We're guilty.

Half the problem is that he has several people on ignore that make other valid technical issues, which he of course doesn’t have to address because he’s hiding in his safe space.

For this reason I don’t think there should be an ignore function, but maybe that’s just me. It allows this endless echo chamber interaction that gets literally nowhere.

Ignore function is often used as a means to hide from reality or protect yourself from facing the truth.