Hybrid cars

[brianl703]

quote:

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Originally posted by bob_ninja:
How many times you accelerate from one light only to stop couple of hundred yards later for another?

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It costs about $5000 per intersection (from a report I've read, and from what the local jurisdiction is paying) to coordinate traffic lights to reduce the number of stops.

Until local governments see the value in that, it won't happen. Local governments won't see the value in that until citizens do and demand that it be done.

 

[pa04prius]

I think people who generalize that the 'long term costs' of a hybrid are going to be higher have no basis in fact to what they are saying. I have 57k on my Prius and it has not cost me a dime in any repairs. My dad has a LeSabre that has less than 30k on it, and because it is over 3 years old and out of warranty, is nickel and diming him to death with small repairs. Everyone speculates about the cost of replacement batteries and other hybrid components. These are covered by the 100k warranty. Will the electrical components in your 'regular' car hold up as well? Toyota has a HUGE investment at stake with their hybrid vehicles and I believe they have designed them to out-perform and outlast most everything on the road so they can make a big name in the market. It will be several years before you can really tell if they cost more to maintain and to speculate on that point now is kind of pointless. Toyota and hybrid bashers will continue, but so far I am pleased and if mine was totaled for some reason, I'd buy another in a heartbeat.

 

[OriginHacker21]

Nice topic - I'm all for economy. Allow me to enter my 2 cents:

Honestly, I don't believe hybrids are going to be helping much right away. Maybe 5-10 years down the road we'll see an environmental impact.

I drive 220 miles a day to work. I see a nice number of hybrids (Honda/Toyota). You know what I see? I've seen a ton of Toyota Prius' going 85+mph in the fast lane with their yellow stickers (carpool) all the time. I've seen them racing other cars. Where is the MPG in that? Why buy a Prius in the first place?

My co-worker owns a Prius. He claims to drive it normally (city driving btw) but only gets 40MPG. For $23,000 I'm not sure how long it would take for the gas savings to give you a return... 20+ years?

His small dodge pickup gets 33+mpg. He wishes he never bought the thing.

My car, 2004 Pontiac Sunfire, was purchased for $9,000 with 6k miles on it. I get 35-39MPG all the time. Compare to a $23,000 car that gets 40mpg. Who's saving money now?


I don't hate Hybrids. I think they are great. Neighbor down the street has a Honda Insight and gets 65MPG (license plate says 65 MPG too

). Problem is, society doesn't know how to use Hybrids (or drive in general

) now so they won't be saving money or gas.

 

[thooks]

Elkpolk,


Sorry you missed my point. I am used to that, it usually does get missed on Internet Forums.


My point is that I HAVE put a calculator to the cost of ownership of both a Civic and Accord and I can't seem to figure out how to amortize the extra cost of the vehicle, maintenance, insurance and other "gotchas" without putting 250k miles on the vehicle in 10 years or less.


My point is this:


What do you have in 10 years and 250k miles later? You've got a vehicle that is worth next to nothing. All you've done is pay for the extra.


Yes, I have qualified my statement that the Hondas don't amortize. I didn't say anything about the Prius on that matter because I haven't done the math. Without doing much, I don't think they will either, that is in less than 200k miles. They are almost as expensive as the Accord, have less room, less power and resale is far less.


I'm with Orginal Hacker.

My $3200 Honda Accord gets 30+ MPG highway and 25 city. I can sell it tomorrow for what I have in it and have put 14k miles on it in 10 months.

Can't say that about ANY Hybrid.

 

[BrianWC]

Well, not to sound like a weeny, but economics aside, isn't there the pollution factor? I know, I know, this isn't black and white either with such things mentioned earlier like the batteries. There's also the fact that you'd be condoning the assembly of 1 more car that wouldn't be on the road if you'd kept your old one, etc. But anyway, has anyone examined this aspect of ownership? In other words, how deserved is the feel good warm fuzzy you get in your stomach when you buy a hybrid...?

 

[cousincletus]

I wish GM would bring back the EV1. I just got a new Chevy Cobalt that is getting 32 mpg combined driving to work and around town here in Richmond. Not too bad but I'm hearing too many reports of the Prius only getting a little over 40 mpg. Not worth the extra $$$ unless gas gets real expensive. Plus there is a cost to the economy by buying something that has 0% American made parts. That's 24G going out of the country in one whack.

 

[ekpolk]

OH:

Hold on there. So you're saying that because some hybrid drivers fail to maximize the benefit available, they shouldn't bother with a hybrid at all? You could just as well say that, hey, if Mr. X is going to drive fast, he might as well do so in a car that will still save him some gas. Hybrids aren't the only vehicles whose mileage decreases as speed increases. On my first (and so far, only) long highway run, I kept it a tad under 80 mph, and got 46.5 mpg, safely flowing with traffic. I'm pretty happy with that, and it was very easy to do. There's also some delicious irony here, you're outraged that the Prius driver was going fast, and Larry, the thread originator, was outraged that the Prius was going slowly.

Your 20 year return analysis is seriouly flawed. If you assume that you must have some form of transportation (a car per chance), then it's not fair to look at the whole Prius price and ask how long before you get it back. You've got to look at the additional cost of the hybrid and figure how long to recover that. That price delta is typically a couple grand (depending upon the choices you're looking at) and thus the recovery time is quite variable, but only tiny fractions of 20 years.

Your friend is doing something seriously wrong. I'm just learning how to play the Prius game, how to "pulse and glide" for maximum mpg while staying with the flow, and I'm averaging 47.7 driving around New Orleans. I've had Cavalier rentals multiple times, they get decent mileage, but it's really no comparison. My Prius is much more akin to cars of the Camry and Malibu size than a Cavalier. And I get 10 mpg more than a Cavalier on its best day.

More importantly, though, it's not all about mileage. I paid barely over $20k for mine (a very loaded 04 model with 15k miles), it has fun features I wanted (nav, no need for a key, HIDs, JBL stereo, etc) as well as side curtain airbags. In the end, the generalities are meaningless to me. This car helps me accomplish my transportation mission, with the degree of safety I insist upon, at a very reasonable cost.

Spend a bit of time over at Priuschat.com. I think you'll find that there are a whole lot of happy Prius owners who know very well how to get the most out of their cars. Saving gas and having fun.

 

[pa04prius]

Don't dismiss the Prius economy at high speeds. Made a trip 2 weeks ago moving my son to Kansas. We took I-70 across from Columbus OH to Topeka KS at speeds always in excess of 70 mph. My round trip mileage was 50.9 - not bad in my opinion. As with all cars models, some get better mileage than others even when identically equipped. Should I credit the FP60 I use religiously? (oops, wrong forum section)

 

[Bill in Utah]

Up here in the real

mountians I went for a day trip from Salt Lake City to St George in a Co-workers Prius (04) and we got a little over 30 mpg.

The biggest problem (for me) was it was so under powered that going up the grades was painful. The little engine is too small for that size of car when the batteries can not help.

In my $10k less Corolla, we made the same trip and while I have to downshift to go up the grades, I can at least stay at 60-65 mph in 4th gear.

My overall MPG on the round trip was over 10 MPG more.

I think in flat area or in town traffic the Hybrid do pretty well. In areas like here or COLD areas, I'd rather not have a Hybrid.

When you add in the $8k-$10k more cost, I'd buy something else like a 4 cyl Camry, Accord or Corolla. (i'm going with what cars going out the door here in Utah.)

The jury is still out in 10 years what costs a Hybrid are going to be...

Take care, Bill

 

[ekpolk]

Bill:

I'm probably starting to look like the guy with his finger in the dike (or should I say levee in this day and age...

). That said, there are a couple problems in your facts. First, if you go check the months and months worth of fuel economy data just at Priuschat.com, you'll see that 30 mpg is waaaaay low and very untypical of what this car does, even in hilly terrain in the dead of winter. The worst single case I've seen there was 29 mpg for an owner from BC in the dead of winter. Typical mileage seems to be between 45 and 50 mpg, with a few notable examples deviating high and low. Would you judge an oil based upon one single, unusual UOA? I think not.

This car is not a Corvette. Under normal conditions, it accelerates like an I-4 Camry or Accord automatic -- in the neighborhood of 0-60 in 10 sec, though it feels quicker off the line with the electric motor cranking out 295 ft-lb of torque, flat from 0-1200 rpm. Of course, if you do manage to run the battery dry, which the ECU is very adept at avoiding, you'll be left with the 76hp/82ft-lb Atkinson cycle 1.5L. Actually, you'll get a little boost from the motor, as when the batt is out, the motor can generate some torque from the excess electricity generated by the engine (not much).

And once again, a Prius isn't a Corolla, that's not a realistic or fair comparison. Please see the dimention and volume numbers I posted above. The Prius, apart from its odd shape, is much more akin to a Camry than a Corolla.

The starting point for a 2006 Camry LE, I-4, Auto trans, no options, is $20,500 (a stick can be had for less, if you can find one). The starting price for a 2006 Prius, "Package #1", no options is $23,033. That's a price delta of about $2,500!!! Where are you getting this "$8k-$10k more cost" figure?

The Corolla is a great car, but it represents a totally different strategy for economizing transport costs. But trying to compare it to a Prius on an "apples to apples" basis just isn't realistic. And it's just a hunch, now, but I'm guessing you're not getting 47.7 mpg* around town in your 'rolla, are you?

* my average over the last week, which keeps climbing...

 

[glxpassat]

How long is the battery pack life? What is the cost to replace it?

 

[ekpolk]

Toyota initially called it at 150,000 miles, supposedly based upon research, but this number is apparently turning out to be excessively pessimistic. Even when including the original, very small Gen-I Prius, the failures just aren't happening -- yet anyway. There are two guys over on Priuschat with pictures of their clusters, 243k and 221k miles, both on their original batteries (of course, that's just two datapoints). At this point, I'd have to say that the jury is still out, but things are looking good. BTW, the wty on the batt is 100k miles.

Cost: today, a replacement new HV battery is about $2300 (install labor not included). I would, of course, expect that as a market (and a refurb program) develops, this cost will go down. Expensive, but a far cry from the blather of the Chicken Littles, one of whom has already informed me that I'll be paying $8000 for a new one within a couple years. I doubt it...

Hmmmmmmmm -- I'm beginning to sense an epidemic of Prius Envy, spreading like wildfire!

EDIT: Some owners are just cutting to the chase and referring to their car as a "Priapus"! What a strange bunch! Which means I'm perfectly qualified to join.

Mods -- apologies if this last comment is too spicy, pls kill it as necessary.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Hi,

No kidding on the MPG! We filled up here and went down there and he filled up before St George. Found out that the gas tank is smaller than I thought. (it's around 11 gallons)

We then had to fill up going back to SLC so the mpg was figured out over 3 tanks (make that fill ups, it did not use 33 gallons of gas) in one day. The battery had no assist since the engine was working so hard just to get us up the passes. 76 horse power is not very much at 5000 + foot elevation before the passes! Your above 5000 ft for alot of the trip. Then going down hill, the battery would get some power but you used it up pretty quickly going back up the next hill. It's not a flat trip...

The Corolla has 50+ more horsepower and its a lighter car (I think it's lighter?)

(ok, just checked the Corolla is lighter but not too much.. About 200-300 lbs for a auto and the porker of the bunch is a Camry around 3300lbs)

I agree that the battery assist (when it's avail) causes the car to feel much more powerful then the smaller motor is producing.

But, I can tell you that (since I was there in the front passenger side seat) that the Prius had a hard time making that trip. It was working hard. I don't know if something was wrong or what, but my co-worker has not had any problems with the car other than a few little items.

Around town and commuting here, it gets around 40-45 mpg.

It really does not go on too many trips. The reason why we took my Corolla was we needed to make the trip again and did not want to try to take the Prius again... (plus the passenger seat was not to comfy and I can not fit in the rear of the car).

My Corolla did the trip fine. I do have to down shift for the passes (they go up quite a bit around here) but over all the engine never had to work like the Prius.

I'm just reporting what I saw...

My 8-10k is over a Corolla (which I can atleast sit in the rear seat)

and I agree trying to find a Stick Camry is VERY hard (My neighbor is looking for one).

We drive our Corolla around town but mostly highway (I'd say 80/20) and my last 3 tanks have been over 42 mpg with one real close to 44mpg. So nope, no 47 MPG.

Best I've seen is 46mpg, overall average is a over 42-43 so far.

As far as Prius vs Corolla, I'm going with the mindset of it being a commuter car and most times, it's 1 or 2 people in it so size is really not going to matter in the front seat.

When you go with $14k (or I should be saying $15k since a Auto is only avail on a Prius) vs a $23 is alot of $$. And we still don't know what parts will needed to be replaced in 10 years.

No biggie, Just reporting what I saw. The MPG was how many gallons vs how many miles in 3 fill ups. About 580 miles total. My Corolla was filled up twice.

Sounds like for you (and many many many thousands) the Prius is doing the job!

I thank you for driving one of those than a SUV!

Take care, Bill

 

[ekpolk]

Bill:

Just a couple thoughts. First, the Prius, in normal operation, is not 50 hp shy of the Corolla. The net HSD (gas and electric working together) hp is around 110, and even that's deceptively low from a real world perspective, because 295 ft-lb produces an effect that no small 4-banger alone can create. Only if the batt is off-line (extraordinarily rare) would you really be 50 hp shy of a Corolla. And to put a positive spin on it, if you and I both run out of gas, you're calling AAA, whereas I can limp on into the nearest gas station, no problem.

Second, the gas tank is 11.9 gallons, but that is a quirky feature. To take the car to the n-th degree of cleanliness, as in zero evaporative emissions, it has a liner bladder, which some owners have reported keeps the car from taking a full load of fuel every time. And ironically, there's a TSB for correcting inaccurate gas gauges in early Gen-II Prii.

As to the backseat, I think you need to readjust your sitting position or something. Coincidentally, according to the Toyota.com stats, the Prius and the Corolla have exactly the same rear headroom -- 37.1 inches. More perspective: I stand 6' tall, but I have a long body and short legs. My sitting height is so tall, that I was at the absolute limits for safely sitting in an ejection seat, and almost got tossed out of flight school as a result (a bit of subtle scrunching got me by). I tried all five seating positions before I bought the car, and they're all OK (middle rear less so). One thing that impresses me is that there's a full six inches from my knee caps to the rear of the front seat, when I'm in back.

Yes, I really do like the car. So far (all nine days of so far...), it looks as if it's doing the mission quite well. With the dynamic displays, it makes working for good mileage an entertaining bonus "game" -- something fun to do while you're getting around. I'm looking forward to seeing how far up I can make the overall avg climb. Our force Chaplain (who happens to be LDS, never heard of that in Utah I'm sure

) drives one too. He told me, with a smile, how he feels as if it's a sin each time he allows the car to dip under 50 mpg average.

 

[rpn453]

quote:

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Originally posted by BrianWC:
Well, not to sound like a weeny, but economics aside, isn't there the pollution factor?

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For local pollution, yes. The extra cost is paying for the extra energy and resources required to make a more complex vehicle though.

 

[ekpolk]

Oh yeah, left out weight comparison. Corolla/Prius/Camry -- 2500#/2900#/3300#, though the Camry's weight does keep climbing as you get through the V-6 models. Ironically, the HSD Camry is the ultra porker at 3600!

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

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Originally posted by thooks:
Elkpolk,


Sorry you missed my point. I am used to that, it usually does get missed on Internet Forums.


My point is that I HAVE put a calculator to the cost of ownership of both a Civic and Accord and I can't seem to figure out how to amortize the extra cost of the vehicle, maintenance, insurance and other "gotchas" without putting 250k miles on the vehicle in 10 years or less.


My point is this:


What do you have in 10 years and 250k miles later? You've got a vehicle that is worth next to nothing. All you've done is pay for the extra.


Yes, I have qualified my statement that the Hondas don't amortize. I didn't say anything about the Prius on that matter because I haven't done the math. Without doing much, I don't think they will either, that is in less than 200k miles. They are almost as expensive as the Accord, have less room, less power and resale is far less.


I'm with Orginal Hacker.

My $3200 Honda Accord gets 30+ MPG highway and 25 city. I can sell it tomorrow for what I have in it and have put 14k miles on it in 10 months.

Can't say that about ANY Hybrid.

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No, th, respectfully, I didn't miss the point.
You stated, "What do you have in 10 years and 250k miles later? You've got a vehicle that is worth next to nothing. All you've done is pay for the extra." All that time, I will have been getting 45-50 mpg instead of the overall (accounting for both city and hwy) 25 or so mpg I'd get with the next closest vehicle that meets my needs.

 

[bob_ninja]

On the original post question,
Many hybrids are more expensive because of the additional tek and complexity. Electric motor/generator is nothing new so should be cheap, but the new transmission required to shift power between gas and electric motors is still being developed - expensive.

The Mercedes Smart car is small. I would expect it to be cheap as it is simply a small diesel engine, but it is expensive. Not really sure why.

Over time as the hybrid components are developed and mass produced the price premium should drop.

As you can see Toyota Camry Hybrid is having a fantastic start, selling very well. As this Camry looks the same as the conventional version, these people are not looking for Eco bragging rights, or whatever was mentioned. So not everyone, in fact many people want hybrid benefits for fuel savings and not to look good.

The other claim is that hybrid don't save money. Well sure, there are driving patterns that will produce no savings. Bus and truck drivers that have a 60 mph average speed for many hours couldn't care less for hybrids. For an average commuter who cannot avoid traffic and stop lights, hybrids do save money.

In my case, last year I was commuting 50 km one way, so 100 km per day. Most highway, plus 4 traffic lights, about 7 turns, 1-2 stop lights. Moreover, during non-summer many days will see highway congestion and slowing down to almost stand still. This is not an unusual scenario and favorable to conventional cars. On my bike I get around 55 mpg, 1.5L Civic maybe 45 mpg. Still Hybrid could do better and is bigger than both bike and Civic CX.

The problem is that we just cannot avoid slowing down. How many times you accelerate from one light only to stop couple of hundred yards later for another? Conventional car wastes a lot: 1) to accelarate, 2) waste breaks to slow down, 3) waste fueld idling
Compared to hybrid that uses batteries to help accelarate and then uses breaks to recoup some of the accelaration energy, then simply shuts off at red light.

In fact, the electric controllers will only get smarter to compensate for poor driving habits. On hard acceleration electric aids gas engine. etc. As was mentioned, the next generation will have a plug for overnight charging. At some point they'll skin hybrid with solar panels to charge while parked.

In the end, gasoline is simply not available in the sufficient quantity. I suppose Noth America won't comprehend this simple fact until pumps dry up. The discussion is no longer about hybrid effectivness or economical value. They are in fact the necessity. It is simply a matter of time before we all drive one.

My neighbor's wife compains that she cannot go anywhere because of expensive fuel. They have a SUV and a pickup! They may be fine vehicles, but if you cannot use them then ....? In the news I heard that GM is bring back Camaro. Do you think the new Camaro is going to help the lack of fuel situation? Do you think GM incentives for SUVs and trucks will help?

Hybrids are here to stay. Gasoline price has no ceiling. It will keep going up until you figure it out. The sooner the better for all our pockets.

 

[thooks]

Elkpolk,

Sorry to have struck a nerve with you.

I'm talking about a Honda, you keep talking about a Toyota. Like I said, I never put a calculator to a Toyota. I'm not a Toyota car fan, so I will settle with gas-burning Hondas.


I stand by my statement that you cannot amortize (with wise economics in mind) a Honda Hybrid.

 

[ekpolk]

th:

No nerves struck, and no hard feelings, but perhaps a tad of impatience. I still don't see how your calculations can be valid, for either make, when you "penalize" the hybrid for its added cost, but apparently don't give it any "credit" for the fuel savings. At least that's the way I read your statement (earlier, you posted: "What do you have in 10 years and 250k miles later? You've got a vehicle that is worth next to nothing. All you've done is pay for the extra.").

Sure, you pay a price premium up front, but then, compared to equivalent conventional vehicles, you enjoy a fuel savings every time you pull up to the pump. Am I reading you correctly, or is there some justification I'm missing for ignoring the obvious (to me) benefit of the hyb?