Hybrid cars

[bob_ninja]

Bill,
For certain type of drivers/driving sure hybrids may not work well. For instance, if you are aggressive during acceleration and breaking you won't get any benefits from electric modules because:
1) hard breaking uses the standard breaks and regeneration is not activated - batteries not charged
2) hard acceleration uses full gas engine power and prevents battery charging; moreover depleted batteries cannot assist

During a hilly ride an impatient driver will probably use mostly gas engine and as it is underpowered for your particular route then sure it may use more fuel than a similar size engine lacking electic components.

However 99% or drivers spend 99% of the time commuting on flat terrain, so these special cases are not important and can/should be ignored. You don't judge a machine based on marginal use cases! For those infrequent trips you can always borrow/rent Corolla or whatever machine may be more suitable.

NiMH batteries are environmentally friendly so disposal and replacement is fine. Although the pack has many cells, they are mass produced and not too expensive. AA NiMH lasts between 300-500 charge cycles. However, typical AA use is to discharge from 90% to about 10%. The Prius controllers keep them closer to the middle, something like the 40%-70% range (not really sure exactly what are the numbers), so they should last longer, 1000+ cycles. From there you can do some math to convert this into years of service.

Note that NiMH batteries don't die suddenly, just stop working one day. Instead, their performance slowly degrades and they hold less charge. Just like the old drill whose battery doesn't last as long as when it was new after several years. To make matters worse, you can have several completely dead, zero or negative volt cells and the pack will still work as the other cells still produce sufficient current. So one can think that the pack is still functioning when in fact it may be down to 50% or less of the nominal capacity. Therefore I would be skeptical of the claims that 200K+ cars are still using original packs.

 

[thooks]

Ok, Elkpolk, here is my math-


In August of 2005 we were looking at a 2005 New Honda Accord EX-L 4 cylinder.

Price was $23,000.

The V6 hybrid equally equipped save for the V6 Hybrid engine was $27,000.

I took 27 MPG average on the 4 cyl and 35 MPG average on the Hybrid. I used 10 years and 250k miles. We know that is more like 10 years/180k miles or 15 years/250k miles.


So, let's say at 250k miles at 27 MPG = 9260 gallons. Multiply by $2.80 = $25,928.

250k miles at 34 MPG = 7,353 gallons. Multiply by 2.80 = $20,588.

So we adjust the initial prices of the cars and we are into the Hybrid for $21,661 and the 4 cylinder for $23,000.

Add extra insurance of about $25 per month for 8-1/2 years, extra tag/registration of about $45 per year for 10 years and we all know there's going to be some major maintenace into the 8th-10th year. We know it would be a conservative guess to say that extra maintenance would be greater than $3,500.


Now, add in the extra insurance, tag and extra $3500 in maintenance and we are at $6500. Subtract the $1339 that is owed from the adjusted initial purchase price of the 4 cylinder and you are at $5,161 left to amortize.


You have $5,161 of unamortized debt and you have a vehicle that has 250k miles on it, and is atleast 10 years old.


Maybe my mode of thinking is wrong and my math might be wrong. If it is, please advise.


Yes, if you bump those fuel prices to $3.25 per gallon, the Hybrid is slightly more appealing. Go to $4 a gallon and the length of amortization lessens.


There was no $3,000 tax credit when we were shopping. Take that into consideration and you are ahead of the game.

There's still that hit on insurance and tag fee.

 

[XS650]

Thooks you picked a pair of cars destined to make the hybrid look bad.

Try the same comparison with something closer to apples and apples like the Camry 4 cylinder hybrid and equivilantly equipped Camry 4 cylinder auto non-hybrid. MSRP price differance is lot smaller on that pair and the fuel consumption differance is a lot bigger because they have similar gas engines.

Or a basic Prius and a basic Camry.

 

[ekpolk]

XS:

Exactly. I'm pretty well perplexed by Honda's decision to produce this car. Rather than go with the I-4 and use the hybrid system to enhance an already efficient setup, they went with the V-6 and built a performance car weighted in favor of slightly better performance and marginally better fuel economy. Especially baffling since the plain old conventional Accord V-6 already does fairly well as to both performance and mileage compared to other conventionals. So, when you compare a hybrid (e.g. Prius) that is designed to accentuate the primary benefit of a hybrid, fuel economy, and compair it against a conventional car, the true benefit comes into focus easily.

 

[Winston]

Thooks, your comparison is rediculous. The Accord V6 Hybrid has about 300hp (combined), the Accord I4 has about 160hp. They are completely different cars.

Just as a Carolla is completely different than a Prius.

It is nice to see someone as articulate as EK arguing for a Prius. I get sick of all the Hybrid bashers. Any car can be bashed for this or that. Toyota's are boring, Accords ride too harshly, Audi's burn oil, Blah blah blah.

Hybrids are different, they have good points and bad. You call people that drive Hybrids fast, stupid?!?! Do you call people that drive Geo Metro's fast, stupid??!?

One other thing, the Prius has a lot of safety features built in, more than a Carolla. Also, the transmission has fewer moving parts than a Carolla, so it is probably more reliable.

Again, there are trade offs with any car.

 

[XS650]

Ed, my wife is going to be in the market for a new car about December. She prefers something like afully loaded Camry, Accord or Acura TL. I was looking at the Camrys online and the Hybid is nly $1,500 more than the XLE 4 cylinder and appears to be quiped about the same. An aquaintance on the next blockover just bought a fully optioned Camry hybrid and claims to have gotten it for MSRP. If so, they look like a good deal.

Except I don't think I can convince my wife to break her habit of over 40 years of running roight up to stop signs and braking hard. That would sort of defeat the purpose of having a hybrid, except for the cool geekiness of it.

 

[ekpolk]

XS:

Yep, the "cool geekiness" part of the Prius is right up my alley.

Winston:

Thank you kindly, but don't give me too much cretit for being articulate -- I did just spell "compare" as "compair". How on earth that came off my fingertips, I have no idea. . .

 

[BrianWC]

That screen is awesome.

 

[thooks]

Thanks, Winston.

I compared what was (and pretty much still is) available. That was ALL I had to go on.


I'm sorry I couldn't snap my fingers and have appear the perfect comparison. I am not bashing the Hybrids. I think they are a great idea. It's just going to take 8-10 years to make them economically viable.

They should be costing around $18,000 versus $23-28k, and getting 2x the mileage.


THAT would have a greater impact on the fuel and oil industry.

 

[John Hilmer]

I think that EK Polk has made some good points and it seems to me that he has found a good vehicle for his application given his desires and needs. That he is enjoying the change from his former ride is a bonus.

A year ago last April as we saw the impending gas price increase comming I stated to look for a replacement for my Tacoma. Then the Prius in this area had a waiting list and was selling between $26 and $28K. While I could handle the cost, inflated due to the market as it was, I looked for an alternative starting with the Corolla. Given my daily 75 mile highway round trip commute the advantage that the Echo offered over the Prius won out for me. I had different needs, I didn't need four passenger capability or the increased size that EK needed. I purchased a used, 31K four door for < $9K. I've averaged over 40 mpg as oppsed to the 26 that the Tacoma produced.

Our requirements and desires are quite different. Not surprising that our selections are different is it?

However, the little Echo struggles to pull me and my 250 pound passenger over the coastal mountains and it is being stressed. Bill in Utah has me wondering if I should consider the Corolla to ease the strain on the engine.

EK, I'll just say I think you are making good sense. John

 

[ekpolk]

TH:

All in good time. One of the points I've been trying to make here, repeatedly, is that non-specific generalizations, such as that it will take 8-10 years for hybrids to become economically viable, are essentially meaningless. Both from the perspective of the carmaker and the buyer, it all depends. If Toyota shepards the model carefully, I'd venture to guess that it will be a true money maker a lot faster than you predict. The Accord V-6 hybrid, OTOH, is probably doomed to be marginalized pretty quickly (if it's not alredy there). As to buyers, same story, the worth of a hybrid (or any car for that matter) depends upon their situation.

Your comment also suggests a faulty premise that's been woven throughout this thread. That is, that when someone chooses a hybrid car, the only valid reason for that choice can be deriving the maximum economic benefit from the choice. This is simply not so, and thankfully it seems Toyota sees this. It's reflected within the Prius line itself, in which you can get a bare car for as low as $23k, or you can get one that is, in effect a quasi-Lexus, for north of $30k. But in addition to the Prius, Toyota is now making hybrids of the Camry, Highlander, as well as the Lexus RX SUV and the GS sports sedan.

Obviously, a hybrid Lexus GS sports sedan does not exist to help a miser squeeze 50 miles out of a gallon of gas. Toyota is recognizing, correctly in my view, that even (especially?)as fuel cost skyrocket, people will still want to keep their SUV or sports sedan, but use less gas too. A Lexus hybrid GS will never "justify" itself if compared to a Corolla, but the picture changes if you compare it against its Lexus siblings or a BMW, etc.

Oh by the way, how many of you can "justify" your selection of V-6s instead of I-4s, or a full-size pickup instead of a sedan, etc.???

 

[ekpolk]

John:

Thanks. I can respect someone who makes a good, carefully planned choice based upon his own needs. Yes, I sure am enjoying my Prius, but I'll be the last one here to go so far as to declare that it's so good everyone should have one. But that won't stop me from singing its praises!

 

[John Hilmer]

I'm not entirely sure I want to "Hear" your song if your voice is as good/bad as mine.

None the less, sing away as you have been. I see the need for the change and as far as I'm concerned it is happening way to late given the number of huge vehicles with "Soccer Mom's" driving my roads with one hand on the phone and the other fussing with a kid.

I'm sure that economics will correct this for us here in the USA. To me it isn't when, it is how sever will the reaction be?

I'll just add that you and everyone else that changes to more efficient vehicles will ease the drain on the limited supply of oil. Now mind you, my stash of GC isn't of significance, so forget about that.

When we experiance the serious lack of this product it will probably cause a dramatic effect on the economy, world wide.

The good part of this is that I can probably be gone from here by the time this happens, but the kids and grand kids won't be able to have the same out. For me visions of the depression look to be mild.

Sorry for the rant and divergent perspective; hope that it makes some sense.

Best Regards, John

 

[Winston]

The Camry Hybrid also allows for a $2600 Federal Tax credit. The Prius Hybrid allows for a $3150 tax credit. That might have been one of the reasons the EK got such a good deal on the used Prius.

If you want to buy a Hybrid at MSRP, just look around at Craigslist. Salesman are often posting there offering to sell at MSRP.

Due to the lackluster sales of the Accord Hybrid, they can be had for less than MSRP. I have seen them for about $1500 below MSRP.

 

[Jimbo]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Winston:
...

Also, the transmission has fewer moving parts than a Carolla, so it is probably more reliable...

---

Maybe, but if Honda's CVT is any indication, it will be less reliable. This is a little-discussed part of the hybrid system, since most dwell on battery life. A conventional automatic can't work because it needs a constantly running gas engine to operate the hydraulics.

IF I were to buy a hybrid, it would be a manual tansmission Insight, but the EV-1 styling is a real turn-off.

 

[ekpolk]

The CVT in the Prius bears no resemblence to the cone and sliding belt/chain designs that have been around for a while and which are appearing in more and more cars at time goes by (with, as you note, mixed results). The Prius CVT is an ingenious design, with very few moving parts. It really looks, in schematics, more like an open differential than a transmission. The idea of it is to allow the two motor-generators and gas engine to all make their inputs together, in a coordinated fashion, and at rpm ranges that are appropriate for each. In this respect, it's very different, and advanced considerably beyond the Honda design, in which, the electric motor is in effect "tied" to the gas engine, piggyback style. Anyway, again, the Prius design is a model of simplicity, and one that seems to function flawlessly (once you get used to the different way an engine runs when bolted to a CVT...).

 

[ekpolk]

Winston's correct. There aren't a lot of used Prii out there, largely because owners are so happy with them. The exception is the handful of almost new examples, purchased by speculators and offered at absurd prices to those who are totally desperate to get one. "Normal" used examples are indeed hard to find. As I noted, I pretty much stumbled on mine. Anyway, having done some homework and sniffed around, the fact that the tax credit no longer applies to used Prii is a major force is driving prices toward where they should be. In my case, paint color (black) helped too. Oddly enough, the color is growing on me pretty quick. I've already parked it in the sun a couple times, and it's not really much worse than any other sun baked, heat soaked car. This is what AC and windows are for...

 

[ekpolk]

Polk sings on...

Here's another hybrid advantage that no one seems to have factored in. Actually, it seems that everyone is assuming automatically that a Prius's maintenance costs will be higher than a comparable conventional car. If so, here's a big exception: the hydraulic brakes. Since so much of a Prius's braking comes in the form of the MG working to recharge the batteries, the brake pads last far longer. My G35 at 57k miles had already chewed clear through its second set of pads. Check out this photo I found on a Prius obsessive's website, represented as original pads.

This can't be a bad thing...