My original point was that hybrids are about using less gas, but that total cost of ownership is still high, and some of that cost is not hybrid cost. Current hybrids are high tech and that can be a bit more expensive enough on its own, for development, ownership and maintenance. I looked at the Escape Hybrid but the upscale model and the CVT transmission ended my interest. And that's too bad. I like the idea of driving an arcade game down the road and having my own personal race to get better mileage.
Hybrid cars
- Thread starter LarryL
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Has anyone yet hacked their Prius to run on elec only?
There is a hacker group out on the internet where I believe they have hacked the pruis to run solely on battery for up to 50 mile drive.
I've also read where Prius in Japan actually have an interior switch which allows them to run solely on battery. Does anyone know this to be true? If so why don't the American versions have this?
There is a hacker group out on the internet where I believe they have hacked the pruis to run solely on battery for up to 50 mile drive.
I've also read where Prius in Japan actually have an interior switch which allows them to run solely on battery. Does anyone know this to be true? If so why don't the American versions have this?
The story I heard that we don't get the switch because we get a longer warranty on the system than other countries do, so Toyota doesn't want us to work the batteries as hard.
If you compare a slightly frivolous vehicle like a Prius to a completely frivolous vehicle like a G35, you're always going to come out ahead in cost and environmental impact with the Prius!
I think that any Camry driver could get by with a Corolla. We think we need bigger vehicles than we actually do, thus the abundance of SUVs. I have no problem with that. I just have a problem with the hybrid hype. They're not environmentally friendly, but no car is. Smaller cars are more environmentally friendly than a Prius though, and that's something that mainstream society doesn't seem to recognize. I'm not criticizing you for driving a hybrid, ekpolk, just like I'm not criticizing you for driving a G35; I'd probably drive something like that if I could afford it. I simply criticize the hype and attitude surrounding hybrids in general. I would respect hybrids a lot more if they weren't subsidized by the money of others! Subsidization makes it seem like a joke to me.
Yes, you can get a Prius to run electric only. Look up Prius conversions on the internet. There is a company out in California that does it.
As for cost of ownership, yes, this is true. My agency, in an effort to save money was reevaluating it's fleet costs and discovered total cost of ownership for a "28 mpg sedan" which usually means a Malibu was much less over its life than the Hybrid Civics we use.
As for cost of ownership, yes, this is true. My agency, in an effort to save money was reevaluating it's fleet costs and discovered total cost of ownership for a "28 mpg sedan" which usually means a Malibu was much less over its life than the Hybrid Civics we use.
Has anyone yet hacked their Prius to run on elec only?
My son has done his. The US is the only country that does not get this feature, and the story is that Toyota is afraid of coming up against some arcane EV/dual fuel regs. You can get the factory button and simply install it, or get a kit that will engage EV with the turn signal. The Prius batteries operate between 40% to 60% of full charge for longevity and are lasting the design life (150,000 mi) of the car, and for that reason the EV mode is somewhat limited. If the car goes over 32 mph or the battery down to 40% charge during EV mode, the car automatically reverts to hybrid operation. This operating program is already "burned" into the ECU - it just needs a switch to turn it on, so it's not really a hack. For the mileage freaks, it will increase your average mileage. My son can get a grocery run in on full EV, for example.
My son has done his. The US is the only country that does not get this feature, and the story is that Toyota is afraid of coming up against some arcane EV/dual fuel regs. You can get the factory button and simply install it, or get a kit that will engage EV with the turn signal. The Prius batteries operate between 40% to 60% of full charge for longevity and are lasting the design life (150,000 mi) of the car, and for that reason the EV mode is somewhat limited. If the car goes over 32 mph or the battery down to 40% charge during EV mode, the car automatically reverts to hybrid operation. This operating program is already "burned" into the ECU - it just needs a switch to turn it on, so it's not really a hack. For the mileage freaks, it will increase your average mileage. My son can get a grocery run in on full EV, for example.
Here's a link to "CalCars" They are in the news all the time. I thought they are selling conversions but it seems like they still want you to send them money for "support" of their work.
http://www.calcars.org/priusplus.html
http://www.calcars.org/priusplus.html
CalCars is doing a plug-in conversion which is another thing altogether - it is a hack allowing you to plug into your home 110V to boost the battery charge and may be running a higher than 60% charge, which the Toyota engineers have decided is a limit for longevity.
If folks can get lithium ion batteries to stop catching fire, we should start seeing some really neat hybrids with 100 mpg!
If folks can get lithium ion batteries to stop catching fire, we should start seeing some really neat hybrids with 100 mpg!
Posted by rpn:
You also stated:
), my mid-sized car is out of the running, unless we take two cars (how envirofriendly is that?). OTOH, when it’s just me, which is most of the time, actually, sure I could get by with something smaller. Even so, there’s no getting around the occasions when I need more capability than a tiny car can ever provide.
You said:
2) The environmental impact question is far more complex than a mere “is or is not” characterization. Battery rebuild programs will mitigate the harm associated with battery production. And with each additional hyb that hits the road, replacing a standard mid-sized car, there will be a) another family consuming half the gasoline they used to, and b) a continual reduction in associated costs as numbers increase and competition and efficiencies of scale come into their own.
In my opinion, anyway, it’s far too early in this game to be making unqualified conclusions about how good or bad a thing hybrids will turn out to be. For now, I’m keeping an open mind. In the meantime, oddly, I already find it disturbing that some cars don’t shut their gas engines off when stopped at a redlight. . .
Absolutely correct, and an integral part of the point I’m trying to make – that these “one size fits all” generalized criticisms of hybrids don’t really have much meaning, because everyone who looks at one is coming at it from a different set of circumstances.
You also stated:
Oh no, not so. Respectfully, why do you presume to know what’s best for me, or anyone else, for that matter? Actually, in my case, depending upon the mission to be accomplished, the Camry (and Prius) is substantially too small. I have three kids. Sure, for a trip for dinner, we can pack in the whole family, but for a road trip, forget it. And when my mother-in-law is in town (frequent for us, but OK
You said:
1) The hype machine is running overtime, on both sides of the equasion.
2) The environmental impact question is far more complex than a mere “is or is not” characterization. Battery rebuild programs will mitigate the harm associated with battery production. And with each additional hyb that hits the road, replacing a standard mid-sized car, there will be a) another family consuming half the gasoline they used to, and b) a continual reduction in associated costs as numbers increase and competition and efficiencies of scale come into their own.
In my opinion, anyway, it’s far too early in this game to be making unqualified conclusions about how good or bad a thing hybrids will turn out to be. For now, I’m keeping an open mind. In the meantime, oddly, I already find it disturbing that some cars don’t shut their gas engines off when stopped at a redlight. . .
I personally hate hybids on because in just about every artical ive red they dont really save you any money. I personally like diesels and thats going to be my next purchase. Good fuel economy and the cost on maintence is less and last a lot longer too.
"Hate" is an awfully strong term. . . But seriously, maybe, maybe not. As I've said in other ways in this thread, you need to do the math for yourself, taking account of your own personal unique situation, something that a distant, faceless magazine article writer can never do. Really, would you trust the folks who wrote those articles to do your grocery shopping, pick what neighborhood you live in, or select your doctor? A hallmark trait of BITOG is its unique collection of independent thinkers. Why such a sudden willingness to herd together and accept news media declarations about what's best for you???
Brian: Oh yes, from one gadget geek to another -- this car definitely serves it up in style. Notice the buttons around the perimeter? There are two energy displays (the other graphs how much regeneration you've done per time), multiple navigation views (in nav cars), telephone, maintenance, stereo, and on and on.
One must be careful not to fixate on the display. . .
Incidentally, the other new and big danger is running over pedestrians who don't hear you coming in electric mode. One week, and I've already had my first "step out." She heard the car coming from the other direction, looked that way, and stepped right out. Had I not just read about this phenomenon on another board, I would have been much closer to killing her.
One must be careful not to fixate on the display. . .
Incidentally, the other new and big danger is running over pedestrians who don't hear you coming in electric mode. One week, and I've already had my first "step out." She heard the car coming from the other direction, looked that way, and stepped right out. Had I not just read about this phenomenon on another board, I would have been much closer to killing her.
Larry:
Your point is certainly well taken, as to certain buyers, but not others. A person who drives only 10k miles per year, presently owns a healthy and paid-for Corolla, and needs no more room than the ‘rolla provides, would indeed be a fool to trade up to a Prius, looking at the situation from a purely economic point of view. Of course, for some folks, waving the “green” flag is important, just as for others the acceleration, handling, and symbolism of a Corvette are important. So I guess if one wishes to wave a “green” flag, the Prius is as obviously symbolic of that as any other car (though perhaps not realistically so). Anyway, some will buy this car to satisfy their emotional needs just as some will buy the ‘vette to satisfy their urges. It being a free country, I won’t criticize either. You, of course, are equally free to challenge their justifications (especially so when bogus justification is offered). Again, my main point for everyone here is to look at individual choices on an individual basis. Sometimes choices make sense – sometimes they don’t, and sometimes the yardstick we use to evaluate choices is itself flawed.
EDIT: Oh yeah, I will enthusiastically join you in condemning anyone, greenie or whoever, who presumes to clog up traffic by obstructing the passing lane. We have one member here who loves to jump in at this point and scold all the “speeders” for driving in excess of the posted limit. Somehow, he blinds himself to the fact that hanging out in the passing lane when not passing, is just as unlawful as speeding, especially when it creates a danger by building up a logjam of traffic.
Your point is certainly well taken, as to certain buyers, but not others. A person who drives only 10k miles per year, presently owns a healthy and paid-for Corolla, and needs no more room than the ‘rolla provides, would indeed be a fool to trade up to a Prius, looking at the situation from a purely economic point of view. Of course, for some folks, waving the “green” flag is important, just as for others the acceleration, handling, and symbolism of a Corvette are important. So I guess if one wishes to wave a “green” flag, the Prius is as obviously symbolic of that as any other car (though perhaps not realistically so). Anyway, some will buy this car to satisfy their emotional needs just as some will buy the ‘vette to satisfy their urges. It being a free country, I won’t criticize either. You, of course, are equally free to challenge their justifications (especially so when bogus justification is offered). Again, my main point for everyone here is to look at individual choices on an individual basis. Sometimes choices make sense – sometimes they don’t, and sometimes the yardstick we use to evaluate choices is itself flawed.
EDIT: Oh yeah, I will enthusiastically join you in condemning anyone, greenie or whoever, who presumes to clog up traffic by obstructing the passing lane. We have one member here who loves to jump in at this point and scold all the “speeders” for driving in excess of the posted limit. Somehow, he blinds himself to the fact that hanging out in the passing lane when not passing, is just as unlawful as speeding, especially when it creates a danger by building up a logjam of traffic.
OK, Labman here. My daughter drove an Insight for several years before trading it for a Civic Hybrid. We have done some shared traveling with them in the Civic. It is a reasonable car for 4 adults and a couple of dogs. I hate people that misuse the left lane.
Highway traveling doesn't make best use of the hybrids. A good small diesel might do better on a life cycle basis if most of the driving is highway. The day to day stop and go driving is where hybrids can make more of a difference. The GM buses are a great example.
As for posers, the ones driving hybrids are much less of a problem than the ones driving trucks they don't need. Who ''needs'' a Hummer?
Incidently, if you are hauling stuff, the 2 seater Insight has an amazing amount of cargo space.
Highway traveling doesn't make best use of the hybrids. A good small diesel might do better on a life cycle basis if most of the driving is highway. The day to day stop and go driving is where hybrids can make more of a difference. The GM buses are a great example.
As for posers, the ones driving hybrids are much less of a problem than the ones driving trucks they don't need. Who ''needs'' a Hummer?
Incidently, if you are hauling stuff, the 2 seater Insight has an amazing amount of cargo space.
I met one of the top guys from Calcars at a B&B in Ferndale CA last December. They do some interesting work, it's a shame the lay on the B.S. so thick.
At the time they were claiming 85 mpg but that was from charging the batteries at home so they weren't using the gas engine as much. I asked him why they didn't just run it completely off home charging, not use the gas engine and claim infinite gas mileage. After choking on his breakfast, to his credit, he said the 85 mpg was selected because it was a believable number for marketing purposes.
What they are doing has merit, it's a shame they tanish it with a layer of B.S..
Well, if they keep reducing manufacturing costs for hybrid cars and components, and oil keeps going up, hybrids will start to make sense for a lot more people. I'll try to keep an open mind myself and consider a Prius to only be comparable to Camry-level cars.
That's funny! The first time I saw those types of claims, I knew they weren't considering the energy they put into the battery; like Toyota couldn't figure that one out if it was truly beneficial!
XS:
So right. What really irritates me is how some either exploit or buy into the idea of a "free lunch" (or should I say "free ride"?). It's not as if the traction battery creates previously non-existent energy from thin air (oh, those pesky laws of physics...). Give or take some change, the customer pays for his energy. All the hybrid system does really is save energy that is wasted in conventional cars, and then "reuse" it when it's beneficial to do so.
rpn:
It will indeed be interesting to see where all this goes. As I said previously, I feel that the Prius is much closer to the Camry in size, comfort, and utility than it is the Corolla or Yaris. But Toyota has just added a hybird Camry to the line too. Clearly, the HSD Camry is more conventional than the Prius, but there's a price for that too -- the sedan shape makes hiding the traction battery harder, and the car loses a huge chunk of trunk (down from ~15 cu ft to only ~10!). And the mpg is more conventional, to the tune of about 10 mpg overall. Less quirky, but less mpg advantage. I wonder if these two models will end up eating each other's lunch?
So right. What really irritates me is how some either exploit or buy into the idea of a "free lunch" (or should I say "free ride"?). It's not as if the traction battery creates previously non-existent energy from thin air (oh, those pesky laws of physics...). Give or take some change, the customer pays for his energy. All the hybrid system does really is save energy that is wasted in conventional cars, and then "reuse" it when it's beneficial to do so.
rpn:
It will indeed be interesting to see where all this goes. As I said previously, I feel that the Prius is much closer to the Camry in size, comfort, and utility than it is the Corolla or Yaris. But Toyota has just added a hybird Camry to the line too. Clearly, the HSD Camry is more conventional than the Prius, but there's a price for that too -- the sedan shape makes hiding the traction battery harder, and the car loses a huge chunk of trunk (down from ~15 cu ft to only ~10!). And the mpg is more conventional, to the tune of about 10 mpg overall. Less quirky, but less mpg advantage. I wonder if these two models will end up eating each other's lunch?
Stupid people in the US will buy them to present an image.
They will NOT amortize, least not a Honda.
thooks, owner of several Hondas.
They will NOT amortize, least not a Honda.
thooks, owner of several Hondas.
Such unqualified generalizations are, ummmmm, to borrow the author's own word, "stupid".
As I stated above, I simply couldn't care less about "image," though certainly some folks do. Being a Colonel in the Marines, my Prius isn't exactly the "in" thing in the base parking garage, where the only folks whose opinions of me matter, also park. A Martian backing his saucer into the Commanding General's reserved space would get fewer quizzical looks than I do in my four-wheeled black jellybean.
Repeating myself again, whether or not a car, hybrid or conventional, makes sense, depends entirely upon the individual and his situation. I drive very high miles per year, including a heavy dose of city traffic and clogged interstate driving, in an area where when a hurricane strikes, you can't get any gas for two weeks. I'm quite satisfied that this car will provide outstanding tangible and intangible value for quite some time.
You're certainly right as to the Accord Hybrid, which IMO was a poor judgment call on Honda's part. They built a high-performance V-6 car with only a slight mileage edge. The Civic is a smarter design. Toyota is ahead as to both, though, IMO. The Camry is an I-4 with outstanding mileage and strong mid-performance; the Prius gives you 90% of a Camry's utility (with a hatchback as a bonus) with essentially the Civic's fuel performance.
Again, if the current crop of hybrids don't match your profile, don't get one, but how can you possibly know what's best for everyone else???
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