HVAC folks - ductless install cost question

[JHZR2]

Since I can't find us made window/wall ACs anymore, I'm considering going to ductless split systems for the noise and efficiency.

I can find prices on systems from the wholesales online. Pretty attractive to me.

Then I talk to the installers. Now, remember, this isn't massively complex. It's baloon frame, less than 25' refrigerant run, I'd even have the 240 subpanel waiting.

But then the install costs come back as more than double or almost triple the equipment cost.

So a single zone unit, MSRP around $2200, wholesale around $1500, costs $4500 (including unit) to install. Why? It is four wires and two pipes, plus some R-410A. I'm not seeing the cost. No ductwork, everything is through the wall, easy to access and even to gravity drain. Outdoor unit maybe 150 lbs, indoor is like 25. Not huge stuff. Man-carryable with two techs.

And it seems consistently pricy.

I can appreciate that burdened cost of labor to the business owner is like $109/hr (including nice profit). But should it really take 22 man hours, at a rate like that, to install a one-zone unit?

I don't get it. What is so tough?

 

[HerrStig]

I like the ductless systems but does anyone in the US make them?

 

[bigmike]

My thought is you're asking at the wrong time. If this were an off-season, you might be dictating the price.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
I like the ductless systems but does anyone in the US make them?


Looks like nobody in the US makes anything in this regime any more. Maybe some of the central air systems, but we dont have central air, and Id hate to give up the attic and closet space to retrofit.

So US made is unfortunately a propsition that does not work in this consumer area. We should be proud of ourselves - we killed an entire industry here in the USA... Not. Uggh, it is very frustrating.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: bigmike
My thought is you're asking at the wrong time. If this were an off-season, you might be dictating the price.


That may be the answer. When we did our boiler, we did an install of a US made system, in January, at a very fair price.

Maybe we are just being taken for a ride... But if it is new capability that we have lived without forever, I can play the waiting game some more...

 

[PandaBear]

If you get similar quote from multiple installer and they all cost about that, it means that it is either 1) cost them a lot of risk or hours to do the installation or 2) they have to give up a lot of other more profitable jobs to do this (opportunity cost).

My installer charge me $100 extra on the estimate because about 3' of pipes were missing or bad. If you think 22' of pipes are cheap, you can probably install that yourself or drill all the holes, and see if the installer can do the final bits for a cheaper price (my guess is it probably wouldn't be any cheaper).

I installed my central air in the winter when it was warm, and the installer told me a quote I would have gotten in the summer would be at least 1k more on a $1900 job.


I know you will not consider a foreign made window AC, but would you consider a USED or refurbished foreign made window AC? After all the money is already sent off shore and you are just recycling some of that residual value, so that it would not be in the scrap, and keeping more money in the US instead of sending at least some money foreign to buy raw material or components for a US made unit.

 

[mechtech2]

So is a a ductless system like a large window unit? It circulates
in itself?

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
So is a a ductless system like a large window unit? It circulates
in itself?


Its like a central air system, the condensor is outside with the compressor, and the evaporator is inside. Difference is that they use an inverter and throttlable compressor to right size the energy draw, and they require no ducts/have no duct losses. The small (20 lb, maybe 1x2ft) indoor unit mounts to a wall and has a very quiet (near silent) fan that blows air directly over the coils.

 

[rjundi]

How many quotes did you get? I am considering this system for my office and living room likely running on same compressor.

 

[JHZR2]

Two so far.

 

[JHZR2]

Got another one. The system, which I know is $1500 wholesale, is $4100 installed.

I fail to see where $2600 goes. I get it that the salesman needs to make a bit, the company some profit.

But $2600? Even $1600 in labor? Two guys for a full day at $100/hr burdened rate.

Retrofitting central air would be $12k. Putting in an upstairs 4-zone split would be $15k. The equipment is $5k.

The claim is that the manufacturers know that folks buying these dont have any other options, so will pay a premium. But looking at the wholesale cost of the equipment, all the cost is in labor.

Seems like a big racket. May just go for my EPA SNAP, be able to buy and use R12 and R410, and then DIY. These systems arent very complex.

 

[LordAbbett]

I have a 2 ton Mitsu Mr slim AC?heatpump in my garage. Variable speed compressor and evaporator fan. It's a nice unit. I think alot of HVAC guys just don't seem to like mini splits. A single zone unit is not difficult to install if they have somewhere to run the lineset and run the 240V line. Easy. I paid $2900 8 yrs ago.
I believe most of these come with condenser precharged with enough freon for something like 25ft of lineset

 

[Slick17601]

I had the top of the line Mitsu Mr. Slim AC/heatpump installed 3 years ago for about $3,700. Fortunately the tax credits were in effect and I got 30% back- this made the more efficient unit cheaper than the lesser units. It is 220V, however, only requires a 15 amp breaker.

Overall, it works great.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Got another one. The system, which I know is $1500 wholesale, is $4100 installed.

I fail to see where $2600 goes. I get it that the salesman needs to make a bit, the company some profit.

But $2600? Even $1600 in labor? Two guys for a full day at $100/hr burdened rate.

Retrofitting central air would be $12k. Putting in an upstairs 4-zone split would be $15k. The equipment is $5k.

The claim is that the manufacturers know that folks buying these dont have any other options, so will pay a premium. But looking at the wholesale cost of the equipment, all the cost is in labor.

Seems like a big racket. May just go for my EPA SNAP, be able to buy and use R12 and R410, and then DIY. These systems arent very complex.


Are you sure it is only 2 guys for 1 full day?

When I install my central air with existing duct and coil between outside and inside, it still take them about 3 man days to finish everything from soldering the pipes, to a new electrical from the breaker to the compressor, and we are talking about a house with pre-existing copper coils between the blower area and the pump area.

If all the installers charge similar rate, maybe there's a reason other than highway robbery.

 

[JHZR2]

Well that's why I'm trying to ask HVAC folks.

The only challenge related to the house, is putting a 3" hole through a wood baloon frame home. Not tough. The units are far smaller and lighter than central.

Running lines can definitely be tedious.

I see the installs on units in the Caribbean, where the walls are rebar reinforced concrete. Still not that complex, granted the refrigerant line runs are usually shorter.

 

[bladecutter]

Why don't you look up the local code specs for an A/C install, perform all the work yourself to install it, and the electrical supply, and then just call up the A/C Service company, and tell them your unit needs to be charged?

That would save you the expensive part of the install, and still give you a perfect charge, which probably is the only part you can't do yourself.

BC.

 

[JHZR2]

That's in the cards...

 

[LordAbbett]

Originally Posted By: Bladecutter
Why don't you look up the local code specs for an A/C install, perform all the work yourself to install it, and the electrical supply, and then just call up the A/C Service company, and tell them your unit needs to be charged?

That would save you the expensive part of the install, and still give you a perfect charge, which probably is the only part you can't do yourself.

BC.


With many HVAC guys that actually have work to do he may still get robbed for them to install a mini split. They may feel that the ductless units are cutting their business and if they come out to finish the install then they should be paid accordingly.
A conventional Furnace with the Evaporator coil is quite a bit more trouble to connect up with the ductwork. and insulate the ducts. A minisplit is ductless. You just screw the brackets on the wall and hang the indoor unit by or over the hole for the lineset and wiring.
The copper lineset for was mine double flared not brazed. That's easy enough. You'd need a vacuum pump to evacuate the system and if it holds vacuum release the freon from the outdoor condensing unit and add or remove freon depending on how long the lineset is.

 

[LordAbbett]

I'm curious to know if New Jersey has some strict laws about doing your own residential wiring. There could be some risks there. And everybody knows you're not supposed to handle even the new chlorine free 410 freon

 

[rjundi]

On NJ I am curious too. My state no licenses required. Nearby MA electrician and plumber license required.

(self) Electrical that leads to fires can potentially lead to you own the problem if a fire occurs not insurance.