HST is a very different design that old hydroshoks, which are known to fail in heavy clothing because they don’t open.
HST vs Ranger T
- Thread starter burbguy82
- Start date
Not a sworn LEO, just a veteran into guns.
I carry HSTs.
I agree with the recommendation against using in a carbine because the higher velocity tends to lead to underpenetration from overexpansion.
IMO bullets like XTPs seem to do better at elevated speeds since they are designed for a bit less expansion.
If you handload, the best 9mm carbine bullet is the 125gr gold dot bullet designed for the 357 sig. It’s engineered for 357 sig speeds and works absolutely brilliantly at 9mm carbine speeds which are similar.
This is the consensus essentially of everyone I’ve talked to or read on the subject of handgun terminal ballistics. They all suck, shoot your gun dry or until the threat ceases.
Hence the wisdom of “your handgun is for fighting your way to your rifle.”
Ranger T here. 147gr
Have 150 rounds. Perfect ammo in my opinion.
Have 150 rounds. Perfect ammo in my opinion.
It is NOT accurate to say the conclusion of the 1986 Miami Dade shootout was that 38spl was underpowered for law enforcement. On the contrary, the performance of the 38spl load used by the FBI (158gr JSWC at 950fps) was used as the benchmark during the testing that led to the adoption of the 10mm. The correct takeaway from the Miami dade shootout is that the FBI needed to issue semi-automatic pistols that enabled higher capacity and faster reloads.
Indeed, that the massively more powerful 10mm offered almost no terminal advantage over the 38spl load in the FBI gel block testing was why the full Norma spec 10mm was deemed overpowered and to have excessive recoil. Thus, the FBI downloaded the 10mm to 950fps— the same speed as the 38spl. Only with the heavier 180gr bullet.
The FBI never adopted full power 10mm. It was downloaded to “FBI Lite” spec during preliminary testing and the FBI never issued any 10mm ammo that was more powerful than what modern 40sw ammo is. In fact, most 180gr loads in 40sw today are actually slightly hotter than the 950fps spec of the original “FBI lite” that the 40sw was supposed to replace.
Original Norma spec 10mm (1200fps at 200gr or 1300fps at 170gr) is very stout. No wonder the FBI downloaded it. Alas, the reason the 10mm “won” the contest for the new FBI pistol against the 9mm and .45 was that 1) the 10mm being handloaded and downloaded, they could “teach to the test” and make it just powerful enough to win the testing, 2) The FBI felt the 10mm being new had more development potential than either of the other rounds which were already 75+ years old at the time of the testing.
The advantage in terminal ballistics that the 10mm showed relative to 45 was very minor, and considered small enough to be within the margin of error. It was the belief that the 10mm had more potential that ultimately gave it the edge. It helped that the common pistols in 10mm also held another round (1911s loaded in 10mm had a std 8rd capacity vs 7 for the .45s).
The FBI’s logic in downloading the 10mm was vindicated years later when they went back to 9mm because the lighter recoiling modern 9mm loads still “met the performance requirement” (which was to be as good as the old 158gr FBI Special load in 38spl).
A modern 9mm pistol offers the same terminal performance as a 1980s 10mm. Only it does it with much less recoil and higher capacity.
That’s what progress looks like in this space.
To hold off further diatribe the very first sentence in my post was "set the stage", not anything conclusive.
It was interesting to see Hydra-Shoks after post incident autopsies that weren't expanded, but the hollow was filled with clothing. Still, they were from autopsies, so they kinda did the job.
I believe it was Ed Sanow that dubbed the .357 SIG a 97% "one shot stop" round due to it's terminal ballistics. For a while, VA State Police used the .357 SIG as the duty carry round, until the ammo became so expensive and the bullet technology of the 9mm improved. Still one of my absolute favorite defensive rounds and I still have one of those SIG P229 DAK boat anchors in "black and white" (bare stainless slide, black anodized frame).
Virginia State Police still issues Sig P320 in .357sig. They have not transitioned back to 9mm.
I almost got and XD in 357 SIG back in the day. Surprised a PD still has not jumped on the 9mm train. Maybe they had a stock pile? Who knows.
I didn't know that. When I left VA in 2006, they were in discussion about going to 9mm due to cost. I knew they went to the 320 from the 229 though, and thought they switched to 9mm with the new pistols. Guess it shouldn't surprise me as VA taxes are pretty high and that pays for the ammo. Time to call some trooper friends and have them send some rounds on down
.That is a good point. The "after the fact" tract in the gel does not really tell the whole story.
Being a larger guy , If I had to go into combat - I would want to be issued a SAW or M60 equivelant machine gun … *With that kind of fire power plus “gobbling” at the enemy and applying a wet finger tip to the front sight - I’d be a modern day Sergeant York !
In my experience shooting into water only, the Ranger T was just too finicky. A hollow point fired into water should ALWAYS expand yet years ago when teaching a PD sponsored Citizens Handgun Course we discovered that our 127 +p+ Ranger T's would only expand about half the time when fired into water at about 6 foot away from a 4 or 5 inch pistol. Only one side of the bullet would expand half the time. We reported it to Winchester but never heard back from them. We mostly stuck with Gold Dot's during my tenure as lead firearms instructor. Gold Dots were very dependable. The Golden Sabers didin't expand as much either as the brass jacket was very stiff.
Not a cop, but I've seen plenty of gilding metal and lead mixing with flesh, and for a handgun round, it doesn't really matter. They tend to just poke holes. I'd pick whichever one expands best in the situations you intend to encounter. I am a fan of HST and Gold Dot.
The 229 was engineered around the .357 sig and is IMO one of the most durable and physically toughest pistols ever made. It's one of the few pistols that can shrug off 357 sig use for tens of thousands of rounds.I didn't know that. When I left VA in 2006, they were in discussion about going to 9mm due to cost. I knew they went to the 320 from the 229 though, and thought they switched to 9mm with the new pistols. Guess it shouldn't surprise me as VA taxes are pretty high and that pays for the ammo. Time to call some trooper friends and have them send some rounds on down
To my knowledge (correct me if I'm wrong), the complaints of slide cracking and other pistol failures associated with 357 Sig being "high pressure" were almost exclusively documented in pistols other than the P229.
I guess it the final nail in the coffin that even Sig no longer offers the .357 Sig. And ironically, Glock does. I'm pretty sure that the Glock 32 is the most firepower-per-pound you can carry, with 12 rounds of hot .357 giving over 500lb-ft per round. That's 6000 lb-ft of energy in the mag of a pistol the size and weight of a Glock 19.
I'm not aware of anything G19 size or smaller that approaches or exceeds 6000 lb-ft in the magazine.
I went through a myriad of carry rounds in my career...
9mm
Federal 124gr Hydra-shok
Winchester 147gr subsonic
Winchester/Federal 115gr +P+
Winchester 127gr SXT +P+
.45
Winchester 230gr Golden Saber
Upon retiring, I qualify yearly with a local department (not the one I worked at), so I carried 147gr SXT rounds (which is what they carry), but I remember the days of everyone 'transitioning' to heavier 9mm rounds because of a single 9mm 115gr Silvertip round's "failure" during the 1986 FBI shootout. This is where a Silvertip round went through the bad guy's arm, into his chest and stopped ~ONE INCH short of the heart. The FBI deemed this a round failure and decided to use the "Three Feet of Meat" requirement for penetration.
I also remember inconsistent performance from the 147 rounds - excessive penetration, unreliable expansion, weapons functionality issues. I was always a fan of the 115 +P+ due to the write-ups and testing of the time. So recently, I shelved the 147 SXT's and loaded up a few magazines of Winchester 115gr +P+ for self defense.
9mm
Federal 124gr Hydra-shok
Winchester 147gr subsonic
Winchester/Federal 115gr +P+
Winchester 127gr SXT +P+
.45
Winchester 230gr Golden Saber
Upon retiring, I qualify yearly with a local department (not the one I worked at), so I carried 147gr SXT rounds (which is what they carry), but I remember the days of everyone 'transitioning' to heavier 9mm rounds because of a single 9mm 115gr Silvertip round's "failure" during the 1986 FBI shootout. This is where a Silvertip round went through the bad guy's arm, into his chest and stopped ~ONE INCH short of the heart. The FBI deemed this a round failure and decided to use the "Three Feet of Meat" requirement for penetration.
I also remember inconsistent performance from the 147 rounds - excessive penetration, unreliable expansion, weapons functionality issues. I was always a fan of the 115 +P+ due to the write-ups and testing of the time. So recently, I shelved the 147 SXT's and loaded up a few magazines of Winchester 115gr +P+ for self defense.
If I could only have one round (9mm) it would be HST 124gr. as tests I have seen - it always works well as expected .
If it is stuff that is marketed for law enforcement they should be also including performance of the bullets through windshield and car glass in general for handgun rounds that is, rifle rounds dont care as much.
Interesting video that popped into my YT feed. Two guys from Federal talking about ballistics.
Key Summary: Velocity and energy can help achieve projectile penetration and expansion, but velocity and energy do not necessarily correlate to terminal performance. Don’t get hung up on calibers and numbers such as size, weight, energy, velocity, etc. Accuracy and bullet design are the biggest factors w/r to effective terminal performance.
Key Summary: Velocity and energy can help achieve projectile penetration and expansion, but velocity and energy do not necessarily correlate to terminal performance. Don’t get hung up on calibers and numbers such as size, weight, energy, velocity, etc. Accuracy and bullet design are the biggest factors w/r to effective terminal performance.