HST vs Ranger T
- Thread starter burbguy82
- Start date
i picked up some 124 9mm HST/GD and Ranger from a cop a few years ago. he was LT and was selling his spare practice ammo . all new in box. i have been saving up laundry and other big bottles as this summer i intend to fill them up with water and shoot some of this ammo at it and see how it works. Also want them to put in the gun room and they are pretty cool when expanded.
i am cheap and don't want to pay $80 for ballistic gel mix. thus the bottles
i am cheap and don't want to pay $80 for ballistic gel mix. thus the bottles
Unless we’re talkin’ 45 though!!
*How 45 guys feel chambering a round.*
Sorry couldn’t help myself.
f355spider
$50 Site Donor 2025
Particularly with handguns. Above the nipples and to a triangular point below the neck is ideal. That is where all the "good stuff" is according to him. Harder, but eye sockets and nose too...(you have to work around the natural "armor" of the head). Handgun bullets cannot be reliably counted on to penetrate the skull unless at contact distance.
He had interesting stories about weird things handgun bullets can do when they strike the skull...
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There's a well documented shootout in 1986 Maihat cost many law enforcement lives that set the stage for 38 Special being lumped into the description as underpowered for a law enforcement handgun revolution and "black" semiautomatic carbines in patrol cruisers instead of shotguns. There's no question these perpetrators having body armor prolonged their ability to continue their fight.Yet training to shoot for center of mass was retained even through the Biden administration. Adaptability is what ultimately saved that day.
One synopsis of that event.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout
Like ricochet off the bone and continue to travel under the scalp until the bullet ends up around the back of the head somewhere type weird? Seen it happen. Victim ends up with a simple flesh wound instead of a more serious injury. Or death.
Turning point for push to patrol rifles in cruisers really happened after the North Hollywood shootout in 1997. Tactics were also changed to include failure drills in training due to the subjects wearing full body armor and taking on so many rounds with seemingly little effect. In spite of their superior firepower, and that almost 2000 total rounds were fired in the exchange of gunfire, both subjects eventually died on scene. One through an alleged self-inflicted gunshot wound, the other bled-out from gunshot wounds while waiting for an ambulance to enter the "hot zone". 12 officers and 8 civilians were also wounded.
Really interesting the the evolution of firearms, bullet technology, and tactics over time and in response to certain events like these.
f355spider
$50 Site Donor 2025
Yup, first time happened he had to look it up and found out such incidents are recorded about a dozen times a year.
Another time a guy was screaming in pain, but had little blood from a gunshot to the head...he removed the bandages EMTs had applied and pulled back the guys hair and saw the base of the bullet...he yanked it out with pliers.
He says we shouldn't discount the "natural armor" we have developed through thousands of years...
I’ve studied this ballistics stuff heavily for years. What’s the best. I want the best. I’ll pay more for the best. Nowadays, just pick one. I buy based on cost nowadays. Good Dots, HST, Winchester Ranger. Whichever one is available and cheapest.
I’m issued Winchester Ranger Bonded which is a cousin of Ranger T. It’s good ammo. I think I’d prefer Gold Dots or HST if I was picking, but they all work about the same honestly.
I’m issued Winchester Ranger Bonded which is a cousin of Ranger T. It’s good ammo. I think I’d prefer Gold Dots or HST if I was picking, but they all work about the same honestly.
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I thought it’s pretty well understood that a ‘shockwave’, as far as incapacitation, doesn’t exist in common handgun calibers. Have to step up to long guns to achieve that effect. Penetration and shot placement are the ticket with handguns
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IIRC, in addition to the talons, the black coating ‘Teflon’ (which it wasn’t) was supposedly penetrating bullet proof vests and thus they gained the name, “cop killers”.To much damage
If police use it, there must be a reason. Also, if police use it, then so should civilians.
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100%
I have never and will never agree with the militarization of the police force, but if I can have an assault rifle........ and so should the police, and vise versa. It seems like that change, after the Hollywood BofA shootout was a response to escalation of the actual threat posed. Today, I see a bunch of fellas running around with NVG in multicam with a Mk18 inspired AR with ACOGs and the whole gamut..... running amuck, behind a million dollar armored car. The threats of today are not much more than Hollywood if at all, but the loadouts seem to be a bit on the heavy side.
Off topic, but figured I would throw it out there.
And this is exactly why we have the higher firepower. Response to the ever increasing amount of weaponry the bad guy has out there. Can't balance the outcome of a situation, you have to tip the scales in your favor. I, like you, do not buy into all the other nonsense.
I think the money on all that gear would be better spent on more trigger time.......like I am fixin to have this weekend!
Much more reliable than the saw too. That thing jammed like it was nobody's business.
I agree in general.
The 249 was also a primo weapon, but it did have wear/maintenance/user issue issues that lead to some of the reliability concerns IMO. White lithium grease was the saws friend. I think that the 240, at least in a regular line unit, (army weapons squad), took a bit better care of the 240 as the weapons squad leader was typically most senor. CLP IMO is just not enough for a machine gun. There was also the issue of feeding, but I think this was mostly human error aswell. Most 240s were basically static, and fed by a person of the crew, whereas the 249 had no crew.
I also think that the 249 would have been much better suited at regular squad level perhaps with the use of mags as opposed to a belt.
I rarely had an issue with the saw, but mine was brand new pre deployments. I did kill a barrel. And like many a feed tray.
Agree. In order to have the power to balance you have to have more power than required to achieve balance....on command.
I say it all the time, I wouldn't want to take a .22 short to my sternum or ANYWHERE 3 inches off of it. Or in my guts, though my personal armor layer of blub might keep it from going deep enough to cause mucho de issus in me guts, but I ain't hankering to find out. Or my head, though I had one of those crazy things happen when I was dispatching a meat hog for a girlfriends uncle once. He said, just shoot it in the head - I did, from about 3 feet away with a 9. It did that glance around the skull deal and the poor thing didn't stop running around the pen and squealing for what felt like 3 hours. I were traumatized. That was when I started to carry old slab sides, and did so for a loooong time. Big old crazy wound, I don't see how it didn't die from concussion - but no, it took another shot. I wasn't close that time, close enough to hit it but every step I took it took a step in the opposite direction. It still had the smarts to do that much.
I like T&T - I was (and still am) a Paul Harrell guy but T&T does good consistent tests.