AWB harming U.S. Troops

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Gun Control Harming U.S. Troops
Jon E. Dougherty, NewsMax.com
Tuesday, May 25, 2004
Is it possible for bad domestic law to be a detriment to our fighting forces overseas – even to the point of getting some soldiers killed? Absolutely, say veterans, who want lawmakers to fix the problem ASAP.
According to a report in the July issue of Soldier of Fortune magazine, many of the ammunition magazines for the M-16/M-4 family of rifles used by troopers, along with 9 mm magazines for sidearms, are increasingly failing because they are either old or of poor quality.

The result, say troopers, is that ammunition fails to feed properly – a situation which can turn deadly in a hurry during a firefight.

'Varmint' Rifle Needs to Go

Add to the problem the fact that the M-16 family of weapons utilizes .223 caliber (5.56 mm) ammunition, which has proven too small and light for war.

"Sometime, before we get into a big war, the U.S. military needs to get rid of our current generation of 'varmint rifles' and start issuing real rifles," one small arms expert told John Farnam, author of SOF's "Combat Weaponcraft" column, a firearms instructor and a Vietnam vet who saw a lot of combat as a U.S. Marine.

Firearms maker Barrett has developed a 6.8 caliber rifle for civilian and police use, Farnam said, in anticipation of a military need. But so far, procurement of the weapon – or a similar, larger caliber rifle for troops – hasn't been publicly discussed by the Pentagon.

The M-16, which first appeared during the Vietnam War, replaced the M-14, a heavier rifle that was also a larger caliber (.308). Currently the Pentagon is testing a weapon called the XM8 Lightweight Modular Weapon System, "a new, lightweight assault rifle that employs many of the technologies already developed for the planned objective individual combat weapon, which would combine an infantry rifle with a grenade launcher," says National Defense Magazine.

Army Lt. Col. Mathew T. Clarke, who is in charge of testing the rifle, has so far been impressed with its performance. "I'm very excited about how the weapon has performed," he told the magazine.

The problem some critics see, however, is that the new rifle is chambered for the exact same lightweight .223 (5.56 mm) round.

Another rifle being examined is the XM29. But it fires a kinetic energy 5.56 mm round, and also comes with a 20 mm launcher that fires air-bursting grenades (to reach enemies behind defensive positions).

Another problem with the XM29 – it's weight. At 18 pounds, it was deemed too heavy for infantry. So Clarke has decided to speed development and cast the rifle and air-burst grenade launcher as two separate weapons for the time being. "Quite frankly, we have to wait for technology to catch up," he told the magazine.

But will it? Some weapons developers aren't so sure.

The small arms expert told Farnam few domestic weapons manufacturers want to make a new, larger-caliber rifle for the military alone. "With no prospect of civilian sales, there is zero interest in this undertaking among American manufacturers. . . " the weapons expert said.

The small arms maker and expert said a government official recently met with a group of manufacturers. The official said the Pentagon wanted to build some M-4 carbines chambered for a Russian caliber – 7.62 X 39 mm – noting that the smaller .223 caliber "has never met our [military] requirements."

The government official then produced a 30-round magazine, which held the Russian caliber ammunition but would fit an M-4 carbine. He then asked if any of the manufacturers present could make such a magazine, as the "magazine ban" of the early 1990s had driven the original maker out of business.

Said the small arms expert: "We all expressed our opinions about the magazine ban and the politicians who supported it and, to a man, assured [the government official] that none of us were interested, in the least, under present laws. He nodded his head in reluctant acknowledgement."

The small arms expert continued: "We thus see how the 'magazine ban' is significantly harming our troops and the nation's ability to successfully prosecute a war."

Bad Magazines

Existing magazines being used by U.S. troops are also faulty.

"A police officer and friend, just deployed to Iraq, is serving there now as a Marine officer," Jeff Chudwin, an associate of Farnam's, wrote.

"He is in the thick of the fighting. He has only two Beretta M9 magazines, and both have weak springs. Pistol magazines are in short supply there. Ones that actually work are in even shorter supply," Chudwin said.

In an attempt to get better magazines, the police officer/Marine attempted to procure some from his home department, but was unable to do so "due to the ban on purchasing high capacity (normal capacity) magazines," said Chudwin.

He said the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms [BATF] was asked to intervene, to approve the sale, but "they arrogantly told us, 'The military must take care of their own.'"

The result, Chudwin told Farnam, is that "the Marine officer cannot obtain additional magazines through the military, and we cannot support him from our end unless we send him 'Clinton clips'" – 10-round magazines (instead of the normal capacity 15-16 round magazines originally made for the M9) or magazines that were manufactured before the law banning them was signed by President Clinton.

In his column, Farnam also included comments from a U.S. soldier, currently on assignment in Iraq. The trooper related some of his experiences with the magazines, as well as a recommendation of how to overcome problems:

"If you are carrying an M9 when you go over [to Iraq], purchase some good magazines," the soldier writes. He recommended OEM or Beretta magazines.

"'Checkmate' magazines that the Marine Corps is currently issuing with your weapons are crap," the soldier continued. "During our first run in the desert, if I did not clean the magazines at least twice a day, it was a guaranteed failure to feed.

"It was rare to get off more than two shots without a feeding issue," the soldier continued. "Unacceptable. I personally don't want to find myself with a non-functioning pistol with the shooting starts."

'Stupid Gun Laws'

Writes Farnam: "Stupid gun laws, designed from the beginning for harassment and little else, are now interfering with our war effort, and no one at BATF, indeed the whole federal system, seems to care. While our Marines die, bureaucrats and politicians dither."

He recommends a course of action.

"When the 'magazine ban,' 'assault rifle' law was enacted, it had a built-in sunset clause so it could be allowed to die a natural death after it did not perform as promised," he wrote. "Not only has it failed to perform as promised as any sort of deterrent to criminal activity, we see where it is having ill effect on national defense issues. Contact your senators and congressmen today and tell them to let it sunset."

Unless Congress reauthorizes the ban, it will expire in September 2004. Republicans in both Houses have expressed an interest in allowing the law to die, while most Democrats have pushed for a renewal of the ban.

During his 2000 presidential campaign, President Bush has said he would sign a reauthorization of the bill if it reached his desk. Gun rights advocates – as well as a number of U.S. soldiers –are hoping it doesn't get that far.
 
Sorry that this is my third "discredit the source" post in a row. Not trying to discredit anyone personally. My point is just that anything you find on the Web, especially from a politically-oriented site (conservative or liberal) should be taken with a grain of salt. Copy and Paste are powerful, and potentially dangerous, tools.

I gave the Newsmax.com source the benefit of the doubt. I really did. But then

quote:

According to a report in the July issue of Soldier of Fortune magazine

gives you a pretty good indicator of the direction the story will follow, don't ya think?

MR
 
Oh I'm sorry I didn't get the story from the New York Treasonous Times. How about the Washington Communist Post, or the LA Socialist Times. Gee let me call Jason Blair up at the New York Treasonous Times and see if he can make up a news story this week. Oh I'm sorry they fired him for making up stories. What about getting a LA Times reporter to write the story. Are there any reporters left at that paper that haven't been totally discredited for making up stories. Get over it. If it doesn't come in a liberal paper it has no credit to you guys. Wasn't it the National Enquire that broke the Monica, Bill and her magical cigar story? Every reporter working for a major paper in Washington knew it was going on but they were too busy covering it up for political reasons to break the story. Just like the AWB it has not and never will work but the liberal's never want to admit to anything they do is a failure. They just lie and cover up their f-ups and throw more tax payer money at the problem.
Take the Baltimore Public Schools, 45% drop out rate and all you hear is we need more money. $13K - $14K dollars per student gets you a 45% drop out rate gee lets give them more money so we can get the drop out rate up to 55%.
Even the Violence Policy Center a major liberal mouth piece said even if AWB sunsets it never really did anything to lower crime but it looks like we're doing something about it. But to liberals it is and always will be symbolism over substance.
 
Do you feel better now that you've gotten that out? Are you one of the folks that believes the various studies backed by tobacco companies showing that cigarettes aren't addictive, make you more sexually desireable, increase ***** length, and aide in digestion?

**** , you need to take things with a grain of salt...
 
I am no expert on rifle design. But every single soldier I talked to who had been in Vietnam had bad things to say about the M-16. But several of them had high praise for the Communist AK-47. Maybe if you can keep an M-16 perfectly clean (kind of hard in a jungle) it will work okay.

I don't agree however that the M-16 round is just a varmit round. The M-16 round tumbles after hitting a target and will tear a human being up.

I don't necessarily think that there is a problem with the round. I think there is a problem with the RIFLE.

Lets get rid of that rifle and replace it with something better.

And for that matter, I think it is time to take a look at some other weapons. Personally I was never a big fan of replacing the old .45 for 9 mm handguns just because NATO uses the 9 mm. There are times even in war when an American soldier may have only a handgun. For example, the only main weapon for a downed pilot may be a handgun. There are times when Special Forces soldiers may be using a handgun. Personally myself if all I had was a handgun I would prefer a .45 or a .40.

And I still say there is something wrong with the M-1 Abrams tank. A two bit rocket propelled round can kill one? Does not seem right. The British Challenger II may be better.

They need armor on those HumVees too.
 
quote:

I'm sure someone will build them for the right price - come on now, are you really telling me that there's no way to make the high-cap magazine and come up w/ some way to make it economically feasable? I just don't believe it.

It is doable, but the thing is that it will happen on military procurement time. As an example of stop-gap fixes, pre WW1 a British officer could and did often purchase machine guns privately with his own cash for his regiment because he thought it didn't have enough MGs. There always appear to be glitches in the provision of certain items to everyone that needs them. People die in the meantime, or are scared $%*#less a couple times at least. If you can market stuff to civilians, your incentive especially on R&D seems much higher. For instance, many of the accessories on the M4 are bolt on civilian or based on civilian accessories.

I believe the death of civilian shooting in the UK is one of the reasons why they have such a crappy battle rifle compared to the excellent No. 4 and the SLR. There are only a handful of hardcore shooters and inventors in the UK that have any familiarity with centerfire firearms. Civilian experimentation has often led to good military inventions. Restrictive regulation only dampens such talent. Anyone think "Carbine" Williams would have been allowed anywhere near a receiver with today's laws and his criminal record?
 
quote:

Originally posted by Mystic:

I don't agree however that the M-16 round is just a varmit round. The M-16 round tumbles after hitting a target and will tear a human being up.


Umm the 5.56 is a varmit round if I ever saw one. Go try to kill a deer with it. Heck it won't even kill a small one let alone a 200 lbs deer.

As far as tumbling, that is misinformation, if it strikes bone the right way it may riccochet or something, but something travelling at 4000 ft/sec will usually punch right through, since it's hardball ammo it won't expand. So unless it hits substantial bone, you will have a very small wound channel in which to incapacitate the target.

Now I woudn't want to be shot even with a .22 let alone a .223 but if I were going to try to "Kill" someone I would want more firepower than that. Give me a 308 anyday.

Or better yet, an AR14/15 in .300 Whisper would be just about perfect.

quote:

Whispers®: A wide range of calibers encompass the 'Whisper®' series of cartridges. A "Whisper®" cartridge must be capable of sub-sonic extreme accuracy with very heavy bullets for its caliber; i.e. 240 grains in 30, as well as moderate to high velocity while maintaining excellent accuracy with light bullets for the caliber; i.e. 125 at 2300 FPS in 30. The 300 Whisper® was the first of the series, and, contrary to what you may have read about it, the fact of the matter is the cartridge was designed as a multi-purpose cartridge from the beginning. Its design parameters, in addition to the ballistics quoted above, were that it must be capable of being used in the AR-15/M-16 family of rifles, Contenders and bolt action rifles as well as being easily suppressed. I know that because I invented it. It revolutionized the tactical suppressed sub-sonic field in controllability in full auto, power and accuracy. It has been very successful and has gained wide acceptance as a hunting round for mid-size game, such as deer, and has probably taken a wider variety of game than any other handgun cartridge in the same time span. Due to its small case capacity, its recoil is very mild.
http://www.sskindustries.com/cartridges.htm

http://www.quarterbore.com/300whisper/

[ May 25, 2004, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: msparks ]
 
Every design represents some solution and some set of compromises. The AK and it's variants get good marks from most everyone for manufacturability, reliability, and good short range firepower. But, I never saw anyone trying to compete with one on the highpower range, which involves shooting timed and slow fire from various positions at 200 yds, 300 yds, and 600 yds, using open sights. One either used a 'bolt gun', almost always a Winchester Mod 70 Target, or a 'service rifle', which was either an M14/M1A, M1 Garand, or M16/AR15. The M14/M1A in 7.62 NATO was the preferred service rifle, as there was less wind drift at 600 yds than with the 5.56mm, and it was more accurate than the 30.06. I haven't shot for awhile, but when I did there was a trend towards using the 5.56mm, especially by military shooters.

The 5.56mm did well out to 600 yds, something that the AK didn't. Most seem to quickly state that aimed, long range rifle fire is obsolete, and while I guess it is in the other branches it is still a fundamental skill that is cultivated in the Marines. People also seem to forget that if aimed, long range rifle fire is obsolete, why do surprisingly large military units stay under cover when engaged by a good rifleman ?
 
quote:

Originally posted by 1sttruck:
People also seem to forget that if aimed, long range rifle fire is obsolete, why do surprisingly large military units stay under cover when engaged by a good rifleman ?

I agree. Give me a 400-600 buffer and I'll reach out and touch someone. That way my fundamental skill will take out the non-skilled pot shotter.

Shooting farther than 200-250m is much more difficult than hitting someone with a hail of full auto gunfire at 50-100m.

I'll take a .308 anyday!
 
The central problem does seem that a soldier that is motivated to pay to get good equipment is prevented from doing so.

That sticks in my craw....not only has the gun ban junk compromised what I can buy, it now puts our soldiers in harms way from sheer idiocy...

Dan

PS...I think the m-16 is not reliable enough...Have several friends that served in Vietnam that hated them and would take a shotgun or ak in a heartbeat because a little dirt would keep one from working.

when in a firefight, reliability of operation is king. I have an old colt 45 that is loose and rattles when you shake it, have another that is tightened up and shoots some incredible groups...I would take the old colt if I knew I would have to use it without access to cleaning supplies or in a dirty environment. It does not shoot the best groups, but has yet to fail to work, the accurized one shoots tight groups but is high maintence to keep it working at that level--fail to clean it between shootings and it will jam, fail to feed, and just aggravate the mess out of you.

Dan
 
quote:

Originally posted by msparks:
Give me a 400-600 buffer and I'll reach out and touch someone. That way my fundamental skill will take out the non-skilled pot shotter.

Shooting farther than 200-250m is much more difficult than hitting someone with a hail of full auto gunfire at 50-100m.

I'll take a .308 anyday!


I read in a mag this week that they are re-issuing the M14s with leopold scopes to combat this issue.
 
As to cheapest quote, it was revealed recently that Oz soldiers are buying their own gear to avoid cheapest quote boots, tents, wet weather gear etc. etc., as they couldn't trust/use the garbage that they are being dealt.
 
We have several hundred M-14's in service in Iraq.
In fact the guy with the highest kill rate in Iraq is using a M14/M21 Sniper rifle. I was down at school last year getting some long range tactical sniping in for the week. They were bringing in Seamen off the ships from Norfolk Navel Base to get them some time behind the M14's. There wasn't a M16 or M4 in sight. These were not Shore Patrol or Ship security but regular Navy Seamen. It is amazing when people say these kids are getting younger and younger. Most of these guys were 17-19 years of age. Maybe it's because I'm getting older they looked so young.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Shannow:
As to cheapest quote, it was revealed recently that Oz soldiers are buying their own gear to avoid cheapest quote boots, tents, wet weather gear etc. etc., as they couldn't trust/use the garbage that they are being dealt.

Why do you think Blackhawkindustries.com is so backed up. They are the biggest supplier to the Law Enforcement and Military SF guys.
 
What exactly is the unbelievable part of the story that we need to be careful about "buying"? That lack of civilian sales potential dampens R&D and distribution potential? There is certainly no doubt that the military has had "issues" with supplying various critical items, including body armor and M16 lubricant that would work in Iraq. Civilian family members have had to take up the slack on occasion. It stands to reason that the hi-cap mag issue is a factor. USGI contract pistol mags since the 1911 have a mediocre reputation for spring compression compared to the best aftermarket ones, since the bid process is at work. The military won't crumble because of this , but it is a legitimate issue.
 
quote:

Originally posted by rgl:
USGI contract pistol mags since the 1911 have a mediocre reputation for spring compression compared to the best aftermarket ones, since the bid process is at work. The military won't crumble because of this , but it is a legitimate issue.

Bingo - everything that our military uses is the result of a low bidder on a government contract - it stands to reason that NOTHING they use will be as good as it could be. That said, if the military says they need high-cap magazines, then I'm sure someone will build them for the right price - come on now, are you really telling me that there's no way to make the high-cap magazine and come up w/ some way to make it economically feasable? I just don't believe it.
 
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