HPL Oil Concerns

[Bullwinkle007]

Don’t make presumptions about testing based on externalities like certifications when you don’t know enough about how the company operates in conducting their own testing.

You presume that because they don’t seek certifications by external agencies, but somehow they’re not doing testing. If you had seen their lab, you would understand that they’re testing with greater rigor, using different methods, than required for those certifications, for example, using TGA vs. NOACK.

TGA is considered by many to be the superior method of determining volatility.

It is discussed here:
Post in thread '2012 Mustang V6 - HPL BAS 0W-20 - 16,918 Miles'
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...pl-bas-0w-20-16-918-miles.356695/post-6162708

You know, I have to agree with you on this and it’s kind of like in the home theater world. Some companies decide to send their products off to get THX certification. Because they know it will pass the certification but then there are other brands that will force THX certification but they don’t want to pay for the certification so they don’t do it any home theater audio file person knows this and don’t really care kinda like this situation when it comes to these high-performance lubrications.

 

[RDY4WAR]

I think your opinion on oil is correct, but your thoughts on quality systems are simply not consistent with quality management theory and practice. Documented standards undergird consistency. Procedures must be consistent among employees. Auditing and inspection are crucial. If you don't have a process for improvement, there is no way that you will ever maintain beneficial changes. That one person can produce items that meet requirements without ISO or other certifications does not negate the need for all employees to conform to procedures.

If you could see their plant and lab, your perspective would change. They are big on integrity and have a high standard for their employees. They have 7 figures invested in their lab. The test methods they use are above and beyond the API certification tests.

For example, API's test for rust prevention is a 4 hour accelerated test in freshwater. HPL's PCMO and HDMO oils are tested in 24 hours of saltwater. (and ace it) They use KRL for testing shear stability with their standard being the most abusive environment they've encountered in the field, loads way above anything done for API. They use TGA for volatility which is proven more accurate and reliable than Noack. Also, their technical director (Dr. Rudnick) is the one who wrote the procedure on testing volatility in TGA. API allows up to 50 ml of foam in D892 where HPL's standard is none.

So why would they waste their time and money testing for API's mediocre standards?

 

[mr_boring]

I think your opinion on oil is correct, but your thoughts on quality systems are simply not consistent with quality management theory and practice. Documented standards undergird consistency. Procedures must be consistent among employees. Auditing and inspection are crucial. If you don't have a process for improvement, there is no way that you will ever maintain beneficial changes. That one person can produce items that meet requirements without ISO or other certifications does not negate the need for all employees to conform to procedures.

I wasn't implying, if it seemed that I was, that a QMS isn't necessary. I worked in medical manufacturing for 17 years, along with the little bit of time I spent in automotive manufacturing, and even had some doings with the pharmaceutical manufacturing segment of that company a few times over the years. LSS/Kaizen/cGMP - these are all languages that I am fluent in, and adhering to procedures is baked into my very being. I now have a total of 27 years of employment (much of it in management and as a LSS/Kaizen leader) in FDA regulated environments. All that being said, yes, I'm a bit of an expert.

But - my point to all of that is that HPL - which I'm sure does have at least an ISO cert, can make quality product without going for VW1234 or Benz5678 or any of those other certs which get so many people harder than granite around here.

I also alluded to real world data, as was confirmed by the HPL man on here, from the racing and fleet world. HPL isn't going to get those contracts without a helluva QMS in place, and if they aren't constantly looking for ways to use the data gathered there to continuously improve, then I'll let you beat me in front of the post office at noon on a Saturday and even let you sell tickets to it.

I've been there, and I've done that. You do NOT succeed in manufacturing without continuous improvement. You don't get your name on the side of race cars on the big boy and girl tracks without a quality and consistent process. If they go out of business in 3 years because they've rested on their laurels, then I'll remember to come back here and retract this post

 

[kc135rfox]

No company needs any certs or even approvals to make a great product. They need quality materials and engineers and formulators to make great products that meet or exceed the expectations/demands of the customers. Joe Amachineman with the right tools and the right steel could build replacement rotors that meet or exceed towing needs for an F350. Without any ISO or any other cert.

I worked for a company that I imagine is similar to HPL. I didn't work there long, but I learned a ton. We made brake pads (primarily) and calipers and rotors. It really makes me appreciate what HPL does. Am I an HPL fan? Not by any stretch of the imagination. For the needs of Bob and Betty Driver in a 2018 Kia driving a couple of hundred miles a week and plan on following the OLM - it's simply more than likely not going to make enough of a difference to make a difference. In cases like this, unless you just want the best and don't care about the cost, even if the 'best' is negligible, oil is oil. Sopus or Mobil or Supertech will all get you a ton of miles in said Kia.

The company I worked for also got a ton of data from both the racing world and the heavy industrial world. And that data was extremely beneficial when we were making brakes for say, F150's or Benz GLA45 AMG pads.

We even had one of those Wizard Tribologists, except she was a Witch Pad Material Wizardess.

Was that company Callahan Auto Parts?

 

[TiGeo]

No company needs any certs or even approvals to make a great product. They need quality materials and engineers and formulators to make great products that meet or exceed the expectations/demands of the customers. Joe Amachineman with the right tools and the right steel could build replacement rotors that meet or exceed towing needs for an F350. Without any ISO or any other cert.

All good until someone wants to make more money by cutting corners and well....yeah....this always will come down to trust with companies not adhearing to standards.

 

[MSCH]

So why would they waste their time and money testing for API's mediocre standards?

because "Better" is the enemy of "Good Enough"

 

[02zx9r rev2]

Was that company Callahan Auto Parts?

Lol, Tommy Boy

 

[MolaKule]

I think your opinion on oil is correct, but your thoughts on quality systems are simply not consistent with quality management theory and practice. Documented standards undergird consistency. Procedures must be consistent among employees. Auditing and inspection are crucial. If you don't have a process for improvement, there is no way that you will ever maintain beneficial changes. That one person can produce items that meet requirements without ISO or other certifications does not negate the need for all employees to conform to procedures.

Are you making a conjecture that HPL doesn't have a QC and QI program? It seems many of your assumptions are without merit.

After visiting the facility, touring the lab, making detailed inquiries, and meeting with the principle's, I can assure you they do all of that and more.

For, example, their boosted Di packages are sampled before blending to make sure that specific tribo-chemistry targets are met. Each of their blended batches "are" sampled as well for consistency and with minimal variability. Improvements are consistently implemented and any weak link is eliminated in any of their processes.

I am not trying to sell you on HPL lubricants as each individual has to sell themselves on any one product; my injection here was to give my overview of their QC and QI processes.

 

[RDY4WAR]

When any new material arrives, whether it's base oils or additives, they sample it and QC it before accepting the shipment. They have rejected truck loads of base oil before for it not meeting the spec they ordered.

 

[Outacntrl]

They also retain a sample from every batch of oil they create, in the event the quality of the oil is ever called into question they can go back and retest it.

Touring their facility and meeting some of their team, I trust them far more than I do a random production worker at another facility with unknown processes and accountability.

After visiting their facility, there is still alot of things I question about the oil industry, but HPL's product is not one of them.

 

[cammyfive79]

So....... I just went and ordered 7qts (freaking new car takes 6 liters which = 6.34qts) of their "entry level" regular ole PCO 5W30. With our BITOG 15% discount my total was $92.65 all including shipping (which was higher than what most of you will pay as mine can't be shipped neatly in one 6qt case). Arguably this oil, in my climate will go easily and safely 10-15K intervals; of course consider a few guys here have great UOAs after running it 20k and even 30K (!!!!!!) miles.

Now a few days ago I had went to Costco and bought the entry level Mobil1 5W30 for $47.85 including taxes and also the $10 instant rebate at the register. $47.85 * 2 = $95.70. The reason I bring this up is that most conventional wisdom is that this entry level M1 is good for 10k on the high end intervals. So, HPL has been shown to go twice as long duration wise and costs a couple bucks less than 2 cases of M1 NOT including me having to buy an additional quart so I can do a 6 liter/6.34qt fill!

The savings/math works out at the same intervals you were talking about - change the oil every 3-4k with say M1 or change the oil every 6-8k with HPL.

*BTW, I did return the M1 to Costco.

 

[hemioiler]

So....... I just went and ordered 7qts (freaking new car takes 6 liters which = 6.34qts) of their "entry level" regular ole PCO 5W30. With our BITOG 15% discount my total was $92.65 all including shipping (which was higher than what most of you will pay as mine can't be shipped neatly in one 6qt case). Arguably this oil, in my climate will go easily and safely 10-15K intervals; of course consider a few guys here have great UOAs after running it 20k and even 30K (!!!!!!) miles.

Now a few days ago I had went to Costco and bought the entry level Mobil1 5W30 for $47.85 including taxes and also the $10 instant rebate at the register. $47.85 * 2 = $95.70. The reason I bring this up is that most conventional wisdom is that this entry level M1 is good for 10k on the high end intervals. So, HPL has been shown to go twice as long duration wise and costs a couple bucks less than 2 cases of M1 NOT including me having to buy an additional quart so I can do a 6 liter/6.34qt fill!

The savings/math works out at the same intervals you were talking about - change the oil every 3-4k with say M1 or change the oil every 6-8k with HPL.

*BTW, I did return the M1 to Costco.

Yes, and not only that, you probably have a cleaner and better protected engine during that same interval, on top of the cost savings. What's not to like?

 

[H. Swanson]

You have the best username on here lol...

Thanks!