Travel further until you find an honest dealer. I feel that tactic is sleazy and shows their character. You have to wonder if they try tricks to get more money from you when you come for service too. There is no way they aren't getting paid for those accessories one way or the other in the deal.
how well can you negotiate out dealer
- Thread starter WhyMe
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted by Railrust
Originally Posted by rubberchicken
No doubt Honda is a good car, but there are other good cars available. Shop with your wallet, look at alternatives. Is a Honda Accord really $5-9k better than a GM or Ford, or Subaru, or Mazda ? I looked really hard at a Honda CRV, Rav-4 and other models: I ended up with a Ford Escape because it had far better towing, did not have a CVT, more power and a host of other reasons, and in the end it was less expensive. No way was I going to trust a CVT when towing Waverunners. You could look into one of the buying services like True Car- it will not be the ultimate best deal, but it will get you pretty close.
Oh man, it would have been HUGE HUGE mistake.
That Impala (as I later learned about them because I later became a GM tech) was a money pitting nightmare. Intake manifold gaskets every 40,000 miles. Power steering racks. Struts. Crank sensors. Evap leaks. Alternators, power steering pumps, water pumps, condensers, radiators, steering shafts, rust, interiors falling apart, air bags, electrical.
Meanwhile that Impala would have needed to rebuilt three times over at that mileage.
My best friend has a 2009 Impala with 300,000 miles, he had rat / mouse damage to a harness
but beyond wear items and a broken wiper mechanism he has had minimal repairs .
He even is still driving on his original bearings which is very rare for a Chevy indeed.
Originally Posted by rubberchicken
No doubt Honda is a good car, but there are other good cars available. Shop with your wallet, look at alternatives. Is a Honda Accord really $5-9k better than a GM or Ford, or Subaru, or Mazda ? I looked really hard at a Honda CRV, Rav-4 and other models: I ended up with a Ford Escape because it had far better towing, did not have a CVT, more power and a host of other reasons, and in the end it was less expensive. No way was I going to trust a CVT when towing Waverunners. You could look into one of the buying services like True Car- it will not be the ultimate best deal, but it will get you pretty close.
Oh man, it would have been HUGE HUGE mistake.
That Impala (as I later learned about them because I later became a GM tech) was a money pitting nightmare. Intake manifold gaskets every 40,000 miles. Power steering racks. Struts. Crank sensors. Evap leaks. Alternators, power steering pumps, water pumps, condensers, radiators, steering shafts, rust, interiors falling apart, air bags, electrical.
Meanwhile that Impala would have needed to rebuilt three times over at that mileage.
My best friend has a 2009 Impala with 300,000 miles, he had rat / mouse damage to a harness
but beyond wear items and a broken wiper mechanism he has had minimal repairs .
He even is still driving on his original bearings which is very rare for a Chevy indeed.
Originally Posted by Railrust
Originally Posted by rubberchicken
No doubt Honda is a good car, but there are other good cars available. Shop with your wallet, look at alternatives. Is a Honda Accord really $5-9k better than a GM or Ford, or Subaru, or Mazda ? I looked really hard at a Honda CRV, Rav-4 and other models: I ended up with a Ford Escape because it had far better towing, did not have a CVT, more power and a host of other reasons, and in the end it was less expensive. No way was I going to trust a CVT when towing Waverunners. You could look into one of the buying services like True Car- it will not be the ultimate best deal, but it will get you pretty close.
Is it worth $9,000 more for that Honda or Toyota? No, but it might be worth paying more for a higher quality brand.
Years ago I purchased an Accord over a similarly priced Chevy Impala. The Impala had more options and was a couple grand cheaper - it really made me wonder if it was worth paying extra for that Accord - and maybe if I kept the car a couple years and only 30,000 miles, yes it would have been wiser to go with the Impala, but if you're keeping it long term?? Oh man, it would have been HUGE HUGE mistake.
That Impala (as I later learned about them because I later became a GM tech) was a money pitting nightmare. Intake manifold gaskets every 40,000 miles. Power steering racks. Struts. Crank sensors. Evap leaks. Alternators, power steering pumps, water pumps, condensers, radiators, steering shafts, rust, interiors falling apart, air bags, electrical. Meanwhile I drove that Accord to almost 300,000 miles with basic repairs/maintenance. Sold it with 289,000 miles on it, still running pretty darn good. No major component failure. Meanwhile that Impala would have needed to rebuilt three times over at that mileage.
I understand what you are saying, but why are Honda dealers shops full of cars the same as Chevrolet? A local Honda specialist seems to have a waiting list for Hondas in for repair. I often wonder about that when I see a Toyota or Honda dealer shop packed with cars. They aren't all getting oil changes. Seems like if they all are so repair free the shop would be empty.
Originally Posted by rubberchicken
No doubt Honda is a good car, but there are other good cars available. Shop with your wallet, look at alternatives. Is a Honda Accord really $5-9k better than a GM or Ford, or Subaru, or Mazda ? I looked really hard at a Honda CRV, Rav-4 and other models: I ended up with a Ford Escape because it had far better towing, did not have a CVT, more power and a host of other reasons, and in the end it was less expensive. No way was I going to trust a CVT when towing Waverunners. You could look into one of the buying services like True Car- it will not be the ultimate best deal, but it will get you pretty close.
Is it worth $9,000 more for that Honda or Toyota? No, but it might be worth paying more for a higher quality brand.
Years ago I purchased an Accord over a similarly priced Chevy Impala. The Impala had more options and was a couple grand cheaper - it really made me wonder if it was worth paying extra for that Accord - and maybe if I kept the car a couple years and only 30,000 miles, yes it would have been wiser to go with the Impala, but if you're keeping it long term?? Oh man, it would have been HUGE HUGE mistake.
That Impala (as I later learned about them because I later became a GM tech) was a money pitting nightmare. Intake manifold gaskets every 40,000 miles. Power steering racks. Struts. Crank sensors. Evap leaks. Alternators, power steering pumps, water pumps, condensers, radiators, steering shafts, rust, interiors falling apart, air bags, electrical. Meanwhile I drove that Accord to almost 300,000 miles with basic repairs/maintenance. Sold it with 289,000 miles on it, still running pretty darn good. No major component failure. Meanwhile that Impala would have needed to rebuilt three times over at that mileage.
I understand what you are saying, but why are Honda dealers shops full of cars the same as Chevrolet? A local Honda specialist seems to have a waiting list for Hondas in for repair. I often wonder about that when I see a Toyota or Honda dealer shop packed with cars. They aren't all getting oil changes. Seems like if they all are so repair free the shop would be empty.
Originally Posted by Rmay635703
Originally Posted by Railrust
Originally Posted by rubberchicken
No doubt Honda is a good car, but there are other good cars available. Shop with your wallet, look at alternatives. Is a Honda Accord really $5-9k better than a GM or Ford, or Subaru, or Mazda ? I looked really hard at a Honda CRV, Rav-4 and other models: I ended up with a Ford Escape because it had far better towing, did not have a CVT, more power and a host of other reasons, and in the end it was less expensive. No way was I going to trust a CVT when towing Waverunners. You could look into one of the buying services like True Car- it will not be the ultimate best deal, but it will get you pretty close.
Oh man, it would have been HUGE HUGE mistake.
That Impala (as I later learned about them because I later became a GM tech) was a money pitting nightmare. Intake manifold gaskets every 40,000 miles. Power steering racks. Struts. Crank sensors. Evap leaks. Alternators, power steering pumps, water pumps, condensers, radiators, steering shafts, rust, interiors falling apart, air bags, electrical.
Meanwhile that Impala would have needed to rebuilt three times over at that mileage.
My best friend has a 2009 Impala with 300,000 miles, he had rat / mouse damage to a harness
but beyond wear items and a broken wiper mechanism he has had minimal repairs .
He even is still driving on his original bearings which is very rare for a Chevy indeed.
I probably should have mentioned the time frame...it was 1999-2004. I never got to see/work on the 2009's. If the 2009's can make it to 300,000 with as little repair as your friends, I'd call that an enormous success. And I would consider that over a Honda.
Originally Posted by Railrust
Originally Posted by rubberchicken
No doubt Honda is a good car, but there are other good cars available. Shop with your wallet, look at alternatives. Is a Honda Accord really $5-9k better than a GM or Ford, or Subaru, or Mazda ? I looked really hard at a Honda CRV, Rav-4 and other models: I ended up with a Ford Escape because it had far better towing, did not have a CVT, more power and a host of other reasons, and in the end it was less expensive. No way was I going to trust a CVT when towing Waverunners. You could look into one of the buying services like True Car- it will not be the ultimate best deal, but it will get you pretty close.
Oh man, it would have been HUGE HUGE mistake.
That Impala (as I later learned about them because I later became a GM tech) was a money pitting nightmare. Intake manifold gaskets every 40,000 miles. Power steering racks. Struts. Crank sensors. Evap leaks. Alternators, power steering pumps, water pumps, condensers, radiators, steering shafts, rust, interiors falling apart, air bags, electrical.
Meanwhile that Impala would have needed to rebuilt three times over at that mileage.
My best friend has a 2009 Impala with 300,000 miles, he had rat / mouse damage to a harness
but beyond wear items and a broken wiper mechanism he has had minimal repairs .
He even is still driving on his original bearings which is very rare for a Chevy indeed.
I probably should have mentioned the time frame...it was 1999-2004. I never got to see/work on the 2009's. If the 2009's can make it to 300,000 with as little repair as your friends, I'd call that an enormous success. And I would consider that over a Honda.
Originally Posted by Farnsworth
..... why are Honda dealers shops full of cars the same as Chevrolet? A local Honda specialist seems to have a waiting list for Hondas in for repair. I often wonder about that when I see a Toyota or Honda dealer shop packed with cars. They aren't all getting oil changes. Seems like if they all are so repair free the shop would be empty.
This is not a valid way of determining the relative longevity of car makes. It is anecdotal and it demonstrates confirmation bias.
I encourage you to take a statistical approach and reevaluate.
No peeking into the corner repair shop allowed...
Cheers!!!
..... why are Honda dealers shops full of cars the same as Chevrolet? A local Honda specialist seems to have a waiting list for Hondas in for repair. I often wonder about that when I see a Toyota or Honda dealer shop packed with cars. They aren't all getting oil changes. Seems like if they all are so repair free the shop would be empty.
This is not a valid way of determining the relative longevity of car makes. It is anecdotal and it demonstrates confirmation bias.
I encourage you to take a statistical approach and reevaluate.
No peeking into the corner repair shop allowed...
Cheers!!!
Originally Posted by Farnsworth
why are Honda dealers shops full of cars the same as Chevrolet? A local Honda specialist seems to have a waiting list for Hondas in for repair.
Maybe the dealer service department is a rip-off, and they're the only one for miles around. That franchise is a license to print money.
Perhaps also the owners have higher "vehicular self esteem" and go for the independent expert as the car gets older vs going straight from the dealer to the corner tire shop for service.
When I worked at a tire shop we had LOTS of corollas and camrys but no prius. Different driver, different philosophy.
why are Honda dealers shops full of cars the same as Chevrolet? A local Honda specialist seems to have a waiting list for Hondas in for repair.
Maybe the dealer service department is a rip-off, and they're the only one for miles around. That franchise is a license to print money.
Perhaps also the owners have higher "vehicular self esteem" and go for the independent expert as the car gets older vs going straight from the dealer to the corner tire shop for service.
When I worked at a tire shop we had LOTS of corollas and camrys but no prius. Different driver, different philosophy.
I will only negotiate an OTD price. If I'm trading I have a very good idea what my trade is worth; I subtract that number from the price I'm willing to pay for the new vehicle, and add in the sales tax. At that point I have the maximum I'm willing to pay. I don't care about ADM or delivery fees because now they aren't relevant.
Originally Posted by WhyMe
installed accessories? stopped by a few Honda dealers in my area. they all had 2nd sticker with dealer installed add ons like sealant , striping , door edge guards. one even had a dealer prep charge. dealer prep one was odd as the factory pays them to do it.
Some of these add ons added $1 to $2 k on to the msrp. seems like they add it universally to every car. when i asked the sales guy about it he said that once its added it can't be removed. but of course it can be negotiated on.
i know this is just padding on to their bottom line. So what strategy can be used to knock it off in negotiation?
Next car I will negotiate an extra programmed key. Dealer cost maybe $60. Loose one of the two that came with the car and its several hundred.
installed accessories? stopped by a few Honda dealers in my area. they all had 2nd sticker with dealer installed add ons like sealant , striping , door edge guards. one even had a dealer prep charge. dealer prep one was odd as the factory pays them to do it.
Some of these add ons added $1 to $2 k on to the msrp. seems like they add it universally to every car. when i asked the sales guy about it he said that once its added it can't be removed. but of course it can be negotiated on.
i know this is just padding on to their bottom line. So what strategy can be used to knock it off in negotiation?
Next car I will negotiate an extra programmed key. Dealer cost maybe $60. Loose one of the two that came with the car and its several hundred.
all of those extras are just a means to pad their profit - and cost them pennies on the dollar. (the flashing brake light probably costs them $5-10 in bulk and they charge $300 for it) I wont pay for them. my last car had $4-5k worth of those included. (upgraded tire/wheel package, trunk mat, flashing 3rd brake light) I didn't pay a dime for any of them. in fact, while I found the extra add-on sticker, they removed it and did not even try to charge me anything. and they even discounted the car over $5k below MSRP. they also did not even ask if I wanted extended warranty, pre-paid maintenance, etc. I think it's shady (mandatory add-ons). if they wont play fair, walk.
Last edited:
Originally Posted by csandste
...
I also email offers stating I'll pay $x for your car. Take money off the top and add it all you want, it'll just lower my sales tax but the check will be for this amount.
I have found this to be the best way to get a vehicle. I figure out what my "out the door price" is before I even start. And by out the door, I mean this is what I write the check for, no extra fees, taxes, add ons or whatever. I don't care how they have to make the deal work. Not my problem. I now what I want to pay and if they can't meet it, then I leave. I do leave my contact info if they change their mind, and have had a few call me back a few days later. Never bought from those call backs because I have usually found what I wanted for the price I wanted already.
Last 2 vehicles I bought (albeit used, not new, I am done with new) I paid what I felt was a fair price for the vehicle.
The Santa Fe they tried to give me the "dealer pity routine" of how they are barely making any money on it, but it is too easy to find approximately what a dealer paid for a trade in. I stuck with my price, and they sold it for what I decided was a fair price.
For my mom's Soul, I did something that your not supposed to do, I used the trade in vehicle to get the price I wanted, but I knew the value of her vehicle, and was able to get more for the trade than I could have selling it myself. Again, I paid what I felt was a fair price (well under what they were asking).
...
I also email offers stating I'll pay $x for your car. Take money off the top and add it all you want, it'll just lower my sales tax but the check will be for this amount.
I have found this to be the best way to get a vehicle. I figure out what my "out the door price" is before I even start. And by out the door, I mean this is what I write the check for, no extra fees, taxes, add ons or whatever. I don't care how they have to make the deal work. Not my problem. I now what I want to pay and if they can't meet it, then I leave. I do leave my contact info if they change their mind, and have had a few call me back a few days later. Never bought from those call backs because I have usually found what I wanted for the price I wanted already.
Last 2 vehicles I bought (albeit used, not new, I am done with new) I paid what I felt was a fair price for the vehicle.
The Santa Fe they tried to give me the "dealer pity routine" of how they are barely making any money on it, but it is too easy to find approximately what a dealer paid for a trade in. I stuck with my price, and they sold it for what I decided was a fair price.
For my mom's Soul, I did something that your not supposed to do, I used the trade in vehicle to get the price I wanted, but I knew the value of her vehicle, and was able to get more for the trade than I could have selling it myself. Again, I paid what I felt was a fair price (well under what they were asking).
Originally Posted by MCompact
I will only negotiate an OTD price. If I'm trading I have a very good idea what my trade is worth; I subtract that number from the price I'm willing to pay for the new vehicle, and add in the sales tax. At that point I have the maximum I'm willing to pay. I don't care about ADM or delivery fees because now they aren't relevant.
+1 Always negotiate the out the door price first, then the trade as an after thought. That takes one more way of them screwing you away from them.
I will only negotiate an OTD price. If I'm trading I have a very good idea what my trade is worth; I subtract that number from the price I'm willing to pay for the new vehicle, and add in the sales tax. At that point I have the maximum I'm willing to pay. I don't care about ADM or delivery fees because now they aren't relevant.
+1 Always negotiate the out the door price first, then the trade as an after thought. That takes one more way of them screwing you away from them.
Originally Posted by philipp10
I've told this before and will repeat. IMO, the best way to negotiate with a dealer is to STAY AWAY FROM THE DEALER .
This ^^^
Don't kid yourself, most profitable dealerships are VERY GOOD at " adding value ... " to the deal. Every step of the process has been analyzed to maximize the probability of a sale, and to maximize total profit.
A busy dealer might sell 50 cars a week or more. Adding an extra $ 1000 per deal works out to a staggering $ 2.5 MILLION in profit per year, and can often be the difference between a dealer being VERY profitable, or actually losing money.
I've told this before and will repeat. IMO, the best way to negotiate with a dealer is to STAY AWAY FROM THE DEALER .
This ^^^
Don't kid yourself, most profitable dealerships are VERY GOOD at " adding value ... " to the deal. Every step of the process has been analyzed to maximize the probability of a sale, and to maximize total profit.
A busy dealer might sell 50 cars a week or more. Adding an extra $ 1000 per deal works out to a staggering $ 2.5 MILLION in profit per year, and can often be the difference between a dealer being VERY profitable, or actually losing money.
The dealers here are getting away from negotiating prices. If you don't buy that car at their price now someone else will.
Originally Posted by hallstevenson
Originally Posted by eljefino
One should understand the relationship between manufacturer, importer, (shady) regional distributor, and dealer.
Can you clarify who these different entities are ? Pick a brand or two as examples.
Toyota makes the cars
Toyota Motors USA imports them and writes/ covers the basic 3/36 warranty.
Toyota Middlemen will own the several-state sales region. These guys come up with various rebates and incentives. There are parts of the country where you just can't get a decent deal on a Toyota vs nearly anywhwere else. These guys are contractually locked in, "own" the region, and are as useful as the Mafia syndicate that they are.
Then there's your dealer.
All have potential to add stupid junk like pinstripes and floormats. If they are truly upstream of the dealer, the dealer can't do anything about it, and may be as frustrated as you, probably because it means they can't add their own pinstripes.
I was able to get my Monroney label online for my prospective car without visiting the dealer, to see that the port put the stuff on, so I could confirm the dealer was telling the truth (!) so I could make my counter-offer by being better informed. I also did a reconnaissance run through their parking lot and found "my" car having been prepped, state inspected, and not equipped with a 2nd markup sticker before finalizing the deal.
Back in 1989 the port installed AC in Mazda 323s. My parents bought one. Not sure how the label broke it down.
Originally Posted by eljefino
One should understand the relationship between manufacturer, importer, (shady) regional distributor, and dealer.
Can you clarify who these different entities are ? Pick a brand or two as examples.
Toyota makes the cars
Toyota Motors USA imports them and writes/ covers the basic 3/36 warranty.
Toyota Middlemen will own the several-state sales region. These guys come up with various rebates and incentives. There are parts of the country where you just can't get a decent deal on a Toyota vs nearly anywhwere else. These guys are contractually locked in, "own" the region, and are as useful as the Mafia syndicate that they are.
Then there's your dealer.
All have potential to add stupid junk like pinstripes and floormats. If they are truly upstream of the dealer, the dealer can't do anything about it, and may be as frustrated as you, probably because it means they can't add their own pinstripes.
I was able to get my Monroney label online for my prospective car without visiting the dealer, to see that the port put the stuff on, so I could confirm the dealer was telling the truth (!) so I could make my counter-offer by being better informed. I also did a reconnaissance run through their parking lot and found "my" car having been prepped, state inspected, and not equipped with a 2nd markup sticker before finalizing the deal.
Back in 1989 the port installed AC in Mazda 323s. My parents bought one. Not sure how the label broke it down.
Originally Posted by Chris142
The dealers here are getting away from negotiating prices. If you don't buy that car at their price now someone else will.
I absolutely do not agree with this mindset.
They are not selling a limited number of cars. They can always get another from the factory. This is not a zero sum game.
You are the one with the cash and the only one to authorize the transaction. If they let you walk, then that is one additional sale that the dealer loses. When you adopt this mindset and empower yourself to negotiate in your own best interests, you then change the calculus of the negotiation and, ultimately, the transaction.
You might not get your best deal at the first few dealerships, but that one guy is out there that really needs to sell a car right now. That is to your advantage. Go find him and then make your best deal.
The dealers here are getting away from negotiating prices. If you don't buy that car at their price now someone else will.
I absolutely do not agree with this mindset.
They are not selling a limited number of cars. They can always get another from the factory. This is not a zero sum game.
You are the one with the cash and the only one to authorize the transaction. If they let you walk, then that is one additional sale that the dealer loses. When you adopt this mindset and empower yourself to negotiate in your own best interests, you then change the calculus of the negotiation and, ultimately, the transaction.
You might not get your best deal at the first few dealerships, but that one guy is out there that really needs to sell a car right now. That is to your advantage. Go find him and then make your best deal.
I used to get all bent of of shape about wringing out the best deal for a vehicle. I'm a BITOGer, I drive my vehicles for 20 years. is it worth running my blood pressure up and spending countless hours researching and haggling to save $1000 on a $30,000 purchase. thats $50/year. for 20 year ownership or 100/year for 10 year.
For me the best deal I can get on a car is buying a quality reliable and taking good care of it. Then I don't need to deal with the stress and aggrivation but a couple times in my lifetime.
For me the best deal I can get on a car is buying a quality reliable and taking good care of it. Then I don't need to deal with the stress and aggrivation but a couple times in my lifetime.
Originally Posted by danez_yoda
I used to get all bent of of shape about wringing out the best deal for a vehicle. I'm a BITOGer, I drive my vehicles for 20 years. is it worth running my blood pressure up and spending countless hours researching and haggling to save $1000 on a $30,000 purchase. thats $50/year. for 20 year ownership or 100/year for 10 year.
For me the best deal I can get on a car is buying a quality reliable and taking good care of it. Then I don't need to deal with the stress and aggravation but a couple times in my lifetime.
I agree. The best part is, per my previous comments, there's nothing to get aggravated or bent out of shape about when you are exclusively working in your own best interests.
Treat that dealer guy like he's your best friend. But also work with the mindset that the only deal to be made is one with your personal best interests in mind.
The whole thing becomes stress free and, dare I say it, enjoyable.
And you get to keep that extra $1000, not your buddy at the dealership.
That's $50 or $100 a year that's yours, not his.
I used to get all bent of of shape about wringing out the best deal for a vehicle. I'm a BITOGer, I drive my vehicles for 20 years. is it worth running my blood pressure up and spending countless hours researching and haggling to save $1000 on a $30,000 purchase. thats $50/year. for 20 year ownership or 100/year for 10 year.
For me the best deal I can get on a car is buying a quality reliable and taking good care of it. Then I don't need to deal with the stress and aggravation but a couple times in my lifetime.
I agree. The best part is, per my previous comments, there's nothing to get aggravated or bent out of shape about when you are exclusively working in your own best interests.
Treat that dealer guy like he's your best friend. But also work with the mindset that the only deal to be made is one with your personal best interests in mind.
The whole thing becomes stress free and, dare I say it, enjoyable.
And you get to keep that extra $1000, not your buddy at the dealership.
That's $50 or $100 a year that's yours, not his.
Originally Posted by Imp4
Originally Posted by Chris142
The dealers here are getting away from negotiating prices. If you don't buy that car at their price now someone else will.
I absolutely do not agree with this mindset.
They are not selling a limited number of cars. They can always get another from the factory. This is not a zero sum game.
and there are lots of incentives for the dealer / salesmen to sell just a couple more cars than they did the previous month. Get in on a slow mover at the right time and they'll make back elsewhere what they lose on your car specifically.
Originally Posted by Chris142
The dealers here are getting away from negotiating prices. If you don't buy that car at their price now someone else will.
I absolutely do not agree with this mindset.
They are not selling a limited number of cars. They can always get another from the factory. This is not a zero sum game.
and there are lots of incentives for the dealer / salesmen to sell just a couple more cars than they did the previous month. Get in on a slow mover at the right time and they'll make back elsewhere what they lose on your car specifically.
- Status
