Excellent vid showing how anti dumping laws, and import laws in general, have negative repercussions on the US economy.
How Germany builds twice as many cars as the US
- Thread starter mechanicx
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Originally Posted By: javacontour
But that's the court where you must win in the marketplace. All other courts are "too late."
Left to itself the marketplace would buy dumped, stolen, dangerous and illegal goods. It's all in where you draw the line.
But that's the court where you must win in the marketplace. All other courts are "too late."
Left to itself the marketplace would buy dumped, stolen, dangerous and illegal goods. It's all in where you draw the line.
We had a real advantage during and after WWII. Everyone else was largely bombed out.
Did we say we won't export our goods to those nations?
Heck no, we made hay while the sun shone.
Did the same to the Japanese who lost their shirts in the US real estate market in the 80's.
Everyone thought that it was the end of the world with the Japanese. They were taking their money and buying real estate in the 1980s.
The bubble popped and we bought it back for pennies on the dollar.
Today, our advantage in agriculture makes it difficult if not impossible for many nations to compete in that market. We've largely crowded out many other nations in that field.
Those are the examples I can think of off the top of my head.
The world is a competitive place. Wishful thinking will not change that.
Did we say we won't export our goods to those nations?
Heck no, we made hay while the sun shone.
Did the same to the Japanese who lost their shirts in the US real estate market in the 80's.
Everyone thought that it was the end of the world with the Japanese. They were taking their money and buying real estate in the 1980s.
The bubble popped and we bought it back for pennies on the dollar.
Today, our advantage in agriculture makes it difficult if not impossible for many nations to compete in that market. We've largely crowded out many other nations in that field.
Those are the examples I can think of off the top of my head.
The world is a competitive place. Wishful thinking will not change that.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Something has to give in this search for the lowest common denominator and it would appear as though the living and working conditions, both financially and environmentally in North America are what are stopping us from competing with China, so they need to go right?
Well, living and environmental conditions were a lot different in our hay day.
The cost of government was pretty low. We didn't have armies of bureacrats that had to be constantly answered to. I didn't sit in an air conditioned classroom until I was in college in the 80's. And there were darn few of them, even then, and it was pretty hot in the South, even before the global warming hysteria. I made $1.90 an hour at my first real job.
There were no real environmental standards that I recall. The schools taught reading, writing, science, and arithmetic. The EPA didn't come along until the 70's. We didn't care if people in Canada complained about acid rain.
A lot of our modern world, the new century, as it was put in the mp3 thread, comes at a cost. Some of that cost is industrial jobs.
Something has to give in this search for the lowest common denominator and it would appear as though the living and working conditions, both financially and environmentally in North America are what are stopping us from competing with China, so they need to go right?
Well, living and environmental conditions were a lot different in our hay day.
The cost of government was pretty low. We didn't have armies of bureacrats that had to be constantly answered to. I didn't sit in an air conditioned classroom until I was in college in the 80's. And there were darn few of them, even then, and it was pretty hot in the South, even before the global warming hysteria. I made $1.90 an hour at my first real job.
There were no real environmental standards that I recall. The schools taught reading, writing, science, and arithmetic. The EPA didn't come along until the 70's. We didn't care if people in Canada complained about acid rain.
A lot of our modern world, the new century, as it was put in the mp3 thread, comes at a cost. Some of that cost is industrial jobs.
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
make that $8 ratchet cost $99 and lets see how many they sell.
So you want the people in government setting arbitrary price levels?
Nope because the US market will offer US made ratchets at an affordable price like it had before imports.
What incentive would manufactures have to supply low cost ratchets? You are limiting supply and competition. There is no reason to believe prices will go down.
Even with the current competition from imports, Snap on and other top tear offerings are very expensive.
If cheaper products are offered, they will be at or below the quality of the imports people are complaining about.
Look at it another way. If every tool manufacturer came back to the US there would be how many companies? 20 30, 50?
That in of itself breeds genuine competition for every market segment even the low end.
You could have a fine finished top shelf product and one with quality but not the same finish or warranty for much less for the DIY market.
Funny i seem to remember this from a long time ago, it worked before we opened up the floodgates allowing unbridled imports of cheap rubbish.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
make that $8 ratchet cost $99 and lets see how many they sell.
So you want the people in government setting arbitrary price levels?
Nope because the US market will offer US made ratchets at an affordable price like it had before imports.
What incentive would manufactures have to supply low cost ratchets? You are limiting supply and competition. There is no reason to believe prices will go down.
Even with the current competition from imports, Snap on and other top tear offerings are very expensive.
If cheaper products are offered, they will be at or below the quality of the imports people are complaining about.
Look at it another way. If every tool manufacturer came back to the US there would be how many companies? 20 30, 50?
That in of itself breeds genuine competition for every market segment even the low end.
You could have a fine finished top shelf product and one with quality but not the same finish or warranty for much less for the DIY market.
Funny i seem to remember this from a long time ago, it worked before we opened up the floodgates allowing unbridled imports of cheap rubbish.
I didn't live in an A/C'ed house until the 1990's. Well, some time in the 1980's if you count the BOQ at Ft Gordon while I was at SOBC.
But Airborne Training at Ft Benning in August certainly was not A/C'ed
Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Something has to give in this search for the lowest common denominator and it would appear as though the living and working conditions, both financially and environmentally in North America are what are stopping us from competing with China, so they need to go right?
Well, living and environmental conditions were a lot different in our hay day.
The cost of government was pretty low. We didn't have armies of bureacrats that had to be constantly answered to. I didn't sit in an air conditioned classroom until I was in college in the 80's. And there were darn few of them, even then, and it was pretty hot in the South, even before the global warming hysteria. I made $1.90 an hour at my first real job.
There were no real environmental standards that I recall. The schools taught reading, writing, science, and arithmetic. The EPA didn't come along until the 70's. We didn't care if people in Canada complained about acid rain.
A lot of our modern world, the new century, as it was put in the mp3 thread, comes at a cost. Some of that cost is industrial jobs.
But Airborne Training at Ft Benning in August certainly was not A/C'ed
Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Something has to give in this search for the lowest common denominator and it would appear as though the living and working conditions, both financially and environmentally in North America are what are stopping us from competing with China, so they need to go right?
Well, living and environmental conditions were a lot different in our hay day.
The cost of government was pretty low. We didn't have armies of bureacrats that had to be constantly answered to. I didn't sit in an air conditioned classroom until I was in college in the 80's. And there were darn few of them, even then, and it was pretty hot in the South, even before the global warming hysteria. I made $1.90 an hour at my first real job.
There were no real environmental standards that I recall. The schools taught reading, writing, science, and arithmetic. The EPA didn't come along until the 70's. We didn't care if people in Canada complained about acid rain.
A lot of our modern world, the new century, as it was put in the mp3 thread, comes at a cost. Some of that cost is industrial jobs.
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
"The U.S. has a huge productivity advantage in that it produced only slightly less than China’s manufacturing output in 2010 but with 11.5 million workers compared to the 100 million employed in the same sector in China," Killion says.
http://www.moneynews.com/StreetTalk/Chin...1#ixzz2OD36qjSk
And people wonder why Chinese workers make less than US workers.
You got it backward. It is the cost of labor that drives to productivity, not productivity drives the increase in income per employee.
Do you want to know the best way to increase productivity? Fire the bottom 20% of the workforce and ask the remaining 80% to do the rest of the work or cut down the less profitable 20% of the work. That's why productivity increase during recession: unpaid overtime for salary workers.
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Yep, it's OK when we do it, but it's bloody murder if other nations do what we've done.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
So in other words China and others should get all the work, sell all they want in the US market, block exports if they want, and Americans' wanting to work tough luck. But dumping is bad because that's the only thing that effects someone, a capitalist. I think I got it.
Seemed pretty good when the US was exporting that paradigm on the rest of us, opening our markets, floating our currencies, dumping product into our markets, then buying out our businesses and resources.
There is no such thing as "free trade", but only "leverage" to bargain.
At the moment China has the upper hand as it has a huge population of peasants that would work for food, dorm room, and $400 USD a month. They are getting more expensive than before and they are starting to complain that pollution and inflation is hitting them hard. They are suppressing their currency to keep their export market by buying USD based bond.
However, we counter that by printing money and they end up writing off the money they borrowed us. We also block the solar panels they dumped on us with government subsidized production capacity and they end up losing their shirt on the deal (Suntech just filed for bankruptcy).
Other than buying off some assets that they earned rightfully (which would increase their currency and reduce ours), over time it would reach a balance and jobs will move to the next lowest cost nations and start over again.
The point is, we've bought so much with an artificially inflated currency for so long that we wouldn't be affordable in the world market until either the lender (China, Japan, etc) forgive their debt because we printed money, or we end up so broke that we are working for less.
Quote:
"The U.S. has a huge productivity advantage in that it produced only slightly less than China’s manufacturing output in 2010 but with 11.5 million workers compared to the 100 million employed in the same sector in China," Killion says.
http://www.moneynews.com/StreetTalk/Chin...1#ixzz2OD36qjSk
And people wonder why Chinese workers make less than US workers.
You got it backward. It is the cost of labor that drives to productivity, not productivity drives the increase in income per employee.
Do you want to know the best way to increase productivity? Fire the bottom 20% of the workforce and ask the remaining 80% to do the rest of the work or cut down the less profitable 20% of the work. That's why productivity increase during recession: unpaid overtime for salary workers.
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Yep, it's OK when we do it, but it's bloody murder if other nations do what we've done.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
So in other words China and others should get all the work, sell all they want in the US market, block exports if they want, and Americans' wanting to work tough luck. But dumping is bad because that's the only thing that effects someone, a capitalist. I think I got it.
Seemed pretty good when the US was exporting that paradigm on the rest of us, opening our markets, floating our currencies, dumping product into our markets, then buying out our businesses and resources.
There is no such thing as "free trade", but only "leverage" to bargain.
At the moment China has the upper hand as it has a huge population of peasants that would work for food, dorm room, and $400 USD a month. They are getting more expensive than before and they are starting to complain that pollution and inflation is hitting them hard. They are suppressing their currency to keep their export market by buying USD based bond.
However, we counter that by printing money and they end up writing off the money they borrowed us. We also block the solar panels they dumped on us with government subsidized production capacity and they end up losing their shirt on the deal (Suntech just filed for bankruptcy).
Other than buying off some assets that they earned rightfully (which would increase their currency and reduce ours), over time it would reach a balance and jobs will move to the next lowest cost nations and start over again.
The point is, we've bought so much with an artificially inflated currency for so long that we wouldn't be affordable in the world market until either the lender (China, Japan, etc) forgive their debt because we printed money, or we end up so broke that we are working for less.
Look Overkill we are "china-izing" you guys in Canada
,
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/06/us-cheap-labor_n_1189428.html
Quote:
A Caterpillar manufacturing plant in Ontario wants to halve its workers' wages, according to The Wall Street Journal. In its negotiations with the autoworkers' union, management is citing a similar Caterpillar plant in Illinois where employees earn less than half of what the Canadian workers make. It's the latest example of how low-wage workers the world over are being forced into an international race to the bottom.
Half pay just like the US auto industry, how generous. Next time one quarter pay.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/06/us-cheap-labor_n_1189428.html
Quote:
A Caterpillar manufacturing plant in Ontario wants to halve its workers' wages, according to The Wall Street Journal. In its negotiations with the autoworkers' union, management is citing a similar Caterpillar plant in Illinois where employees earn less than half of what the Canadian workers make. It's the latest example of how low-wage workers the world over are being forced into an international race to the bottom.
Half pay just like the US auto industry, how generous. Next time one quarter pay.
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Does Germany put tariff on Chinese goods? I recall seeing a German wrench comparison report which at least had a low priced Indian wrench but I do not know if a Chinese one was included or not.
Most Chinese stuff is subject to heavy tariffs. Products from India not so much as they are not a big exporter to Germany but more of an importer.
http://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch5en/conc5en/leadingtraders.html
Originally Posted By: article
In recent years Germany overtook the traditional position of the world's largest exporter held by United States over the last 50 years
The numbers don't lie. Something isn't right in the good ol USA when a little tiny country like Germany can overtake them as an exporter.
Does Germany put tariff on Chinese goods? I recall seeing a German wrench comparison report which at least had a low priced Indian wrench but I do not know if a Chinese one was included or not.
Most Chinese stuff is subject to heavy tariffs. Products from India not so much as they are not a big exporter to Germany but more of an importer.
http://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch5en/conc5en/leadingtraders.html
Originally Posted By: article
In recent years Germany overtook the traditional position of the world's largest exporter held by United States over the last 50 years
The numbers don't lie. Something isn't right in the good ol USA when a little tiny country like Germany can overtake them as an exporter.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Something has to give in this search for the lowest common denominator and it would appear as though the living and working conditions, both financially and environmentally in North America are what are stopping us from competing with China, so they need to go right?
Well, living and environmental conditions were a lot different in our hay day.
The cost of government was pretty low. We didn't have armies of bureacrats that had to be constantly answered to. I didn't sit in an air conditioned classroom until I was in college in the 80's. And there were darn few of them, even then, and it was pretty hot in the South, even before the global warming hysteria. I made $1.90 an hour at my first real job.
There were no real environmental standards that I recall. The schools taught reading, writing, science, and arithmetic. The EPA didn't come along until the 70's. We didn't care if people in Canada complained about acid rain.
A lot of our modern world, the new century, as it was put in the mp3 thread, comes at a cost. Some of that cost is industrial jobs.
Yet Germany has managed to retain an incredibly robust manufacturing base.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Something has to give in this search for the lowest common denominator and it would appear as though the living and working conditions, both financially and environmentally in North America are what are stopping us from competing with China, so they need to go right?
Well, living and environmental conditions were a lot different in our hay day.
The cost of government was pretty low. We didn't have armies of bureacrats that had to be constantly answered to. I didn't sit in an air conditioned classroom until I was in college in the 80's. And there were darn few of them, even then, and it was pretty hot in the South, even before the global warming hysteria. I made $1.90 an hour at my first real job.
There were no real environmental standards that I recall. The schools taught reading, writing, science, and arithmetic. The EPA didn't come along until the 70's. We didn't care if people in Canada complained about acid rain.
A lot of our modern world, the new century, as it was put in the mp3 thread, comes at a cost. Some of that cost is industrial jobs.
Yet Germany has managed to retain an incredibly robust manufacturing base.
Originally Posted By: Trav
The numbers don't lie. Something isn't right in the good ol USA when a little tiny country like Germany can overtake them as an exporter.
In some way Greece, Italy, and Ireland are dragging down the Euro so Germany labor cost is artificially suppressed.
If Euro didn't exist and they were using Marks, it would have cost them a lot of jobs as it would have increased in valve vs USD or Yuan.
The numbers don't lie. Something isn't right in the good ol USA when a little tiny country like Germany can overtake them as an exporter.
In some way Greece, Italy, and Ireland are dragging down the Euro so Germany labor cost is artificially suppressed.
If Euro didn't exist and they were using Marks, it would have cost them a lot of jobs as it would have increased in valve vs USD or Yuan.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
I agree. Unfortunately the trade schools we do have aren't what they used to be.
Our four year colleges are kind of a joke too. Education is just paying a lot for a piece of paper in the US.
My high school was really pushy about everyone going to a four year college. I had wanted to go to a trade school, and even got my parents to be okay with the idea, but then ended up giving in to the suggestion of high school counselors, advisers, and peers that I go to a four year school. I did graduate college in four years with a degree in something I don't even care about, but I think it was the wrong direction for me. I spent most of those four years partying instead of focusing on what I really wanted to do.
I don't think education is a bad thing, I just think it's done better in other places. In the US it's all driven by money, not the greater good of the nation and its people or anything like that. We end up with diploma factories where kids can waste time and party.
Education is a great thing when the right people are educated.
In Germany they start looking at your grades and how you got on in school from grade 1 to determine if you have "the right stuff".
If your not quite up to snuff you may be good enough to study for a couple of more years to bring yourself up to the point they will let you "study" for a degree.
The problem in the US today is everyone want to be a Chief and all the Indians are running around with a degree trying to get the Chiefs job or be a little Chief.
Once all the Indians become a Chief the tribe will fade away.
Agreed again.
In the US there is such a push to make sure every kid feels special and nobody is a loser that we are shooting ourselves in the foot. We don't teach kids how to accept defeat and move on, we teach them that they are all winners when they aren't. Kids are raised and schooled to believe they are all special and entitled, and that everyone should have dreams of being president or CEO.
There are only so many openings for president, astronaut, and CEO. Somebody has to do the dirty jobs, but we shun those as being for people who sell themselves short, or who are unsuccessful. When I told people in high school that I wanted to work on cars, the response was often a disgusted "why?" That disgust was what eventually led to me going to a four year diploma factory I had no interest in.
The entitlement mentality people are instilling in kids is going to kill this country. Education shouldn't be about making everyone feel good about themselves, it's something that should be taken seriously. The countries that are taking it seriously are going to kick our collective [censored].
Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
I agree. Unfortunately the trade schools we do have aren't what they used to be.
Our four year colleges are kind of a joke too. Education is just paying a lot for a piece of paper in the US.
My high school was really pushy about everyone going to a four year college. I had wanted to go to a trade school, and even got my parents to be okay with the idea, but then ended up giving in to the suggestion of high school counselors, advisers, and peers that I go to a four year school. I did graduate college in four years with a degree in something I don't even care about, but I think it was the wrong direction for me. I spent most of those four years partying instead of focusing on what I really wanted to do.
I don't think education is a bad thing, I just think it's done better in other places. In the US it's all driven by money, not the greater good of the nation and its people or anything like that. We end up with diploma factories where kids can waste time and party.
Education is a great thing when the right people are educated.
In Germany they start looking at your grades and how you got on in school from grade 1 to determine if you have "the right stuff".
If your not quite up to snuff you may be good enough to study for a couple of more years to bring yourself up to the point they will let you "study" for a degree.
The problem in the US today is everyone want to be a Chief and all the Indians are running around with a degree trying to get the Chiefs job or be a little Chief.
Once all the Indians become a Chief the tribe will fade away.
Agreed again.
In the US there is such a push to make sure every kid feels special and nobody is a loser that we are shooting ourselves in the foot. We don't teach kids how to accept defeat and move on, we teach them that they are all winners when they aren't. Kids are raised and schooled to believe they are all special and entitled, and that everyone should have dreams of being president or CEO.
There are only so many openings for president, astronaut, and CEO. Somebody has to do the dirty jobs, but we shun those as being for people who sell themselves short, or who are unsuccessful. When I told people in high school that I wanted to work on cars, the response was often a disgusted "why?" That disgust was what eventually led to me going to a four year diploma factory I had no interest in.
The entitlement mentality people are instilling in kids is going to kill this country. Education shouldn't be about making everyone feel good about themselves, it's something that should be taken seriously. The countries that are taking it seriously are going to kick our collective [censored].
Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
In the US there is such a push to make sure every kid feels special and nobody is a loser that we are shooting ourselves in the foot. We don't teach kids how to accept defeat and move on, we teach them that they are all winners when they aren't. Kids are raised and schooled to believe they are all special and entitled, and that everyone should have dreams of being president or CEO.
This is far from the only problem, but it's certainly a big one.
Everyone knows that stress and low self-esteem are bad; the problem is that we sometimes respond in the wrong way: by trying to artificially pump up self-image in cheap ways instead of teaching resilience and persistence. As you said, it shouldn't be about thinking you deserve success no matter what; it should be about recognizing your talents for what they are and getting back up after you're knocked down.
Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
There are only so many openings for president, astronaut, and CEO. Somebody has to do the dirty jobs, but we shun those as being for people who sell themselves short, or who are unsuccessful. When I told people in high school that I wanted to work on cars, the response was often a disgusted "why?" That disgust was what eventually led to me going to a four year diploma factory I had no interest in.
Sorry to hear that.
Did you eventually settle into something you enjoy?
Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
Education shouldn't be about making everyone feel good about themselves, it's something that should be taken seriously. The countries that are taking it seriously are going to kick our collective [censored].
You just said the C word!
In the US there is such a push to make sure every kid feels special and nobody is a loser that we are shooting ourselves in the foot. We don't teach kids how to accept defeat and move on, we teach them that they are all winners when they aren't. Kids are raised and schooled to believe they are all special and entitled, and that everyone should have dreams of being president or CEO.
This is far from the only problem, but it's certainly a big one.
Everyone knows that stress and low self-esteem are bad; the problem is that we sometimes respond in the wrong way: by trying to artificially pump up self-image in cheap ways instead of teaching resilience and persistence. As you said, it shouldn't be about thinking you deserve success no matter what; it should be about recognizing your talents for what they are and getting back up after you're knocked down.
Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
There are only so many openings for president, astronaut, and CEO. Somebody has to do the dirty jobs, but we shun those as being for people who sell themselves short, or who are unsuccessful. When I told people in high school that I wanted to work on cars, the response was often a disgusted "why?" That disgust was what eventually led to me going to a four year diploma factory I had no interest in.
Sorry to hear that.
Did you eventually settle into something you enjoy?
Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
Education shouldn't be about making everyone feel good about themselves, it's something that should be taken seriously. The countries that are taking it seriously are going to kick our collective [censored].
You just said the C word!
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Did you eventually settle into something you enjoy?
Not yet, but I'm still young. What's funny though is people always told me "once you get the four year degree you can do whatever you want!"
No, you can't.
I'm thinking of going back to school, but in a trade. Automotive or something similar like heavy equipment. Right now though I'm just happy to be employed and able to pay the bills.
Did you eventually settle into something you enjoy?
Not yet, but I'm still young. What's funny though is people always told me "once you get the four year degree you can do whatever you want!"
I'm thinking of going back to school, but in a trade. Automotive or something similar like heavy equipment. Right now though I'm just happy to be employed and able to pay the bills.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Ordered a replacement brake pad wear sensor for my BMW from Canadian Tire yesterday to go with the Wagner pads I put on it.
It arrived today. This part was inexpensive and wasn't genuine BMW (the BMW pads have this item as part of the pad), yet:
It arrived today. This part was inexpensive and wasn't genuine BMW (the BMW pads have this item as part of the pad), yet:
Interesting that the label of origin uses the old
"Federal Rep of Germany" label on parts for a car made way after reunification.
"Federal Rep of Germany" label on parts for a car made way after reunification.
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Interesting that the label of origin uses the old
"Federal Rep of Germany" label on parts for a car made way after reunification.
Yes its not that common any more but its still valid.
Today you see more BRD (Bundesrepublik Deutschland) than FRD.
Interesting that the label of origin uses the old
"Federal Rep of Germany" label on parts for a car made way after reunification.
Yes its not that common any more but its still valid.
Today you see more BRD (Bundesrepublik Deutschland) than FRD.
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