what is so sad about trial and error. I'm pretty sure if that honda 10k oci reccomendation is derived from engineering experience she aint gonna blow up. JMO.
How do manufacturers set oil change intervals?
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dustyjoe;
Trial and error is good...no problem with applying experience to making good decisions. But I do think a good amount of the trial and error ought to take place on the engineers' nickel, not ours.
What I thought was sad was that (from Kestas' post) it sounded like the customer was doing most of their durability testing for them.
That being said, any OCI is just a guess. Even the ones that people on here have set based on their "UOA trends" because we still haven't figured out how many PPM we can live with and still get a decent engine life.
Trial and error is good...no problem with applying experience to making good decisions. But I do think a good amount of the trial and error ought to take place on the engineers' nickel, not ours.
What I thought was sad was that (from Kestas' post) it sounded like the customer was doing most of their durability testing for them.
That being said, any OCI is just a guess. Even the ones that people on here have set based on their "UOA trends" because we still haven't figured out how many PPM we can live with and still get a decent engine life.
medic if that were true GM would not have the oil consumption issues under 100,000 miles. You can find these issues in the Northstar, Gen III and the Saturn engines.
Diamler-Chrysler's standard of service or life cycle expectation for all of it's new engine's 4.7,3.7 and 5.7 is 150,000 miles. So they have designed and tested these engines to ensure that 70% or more of these engines will meet or exceed this target millage with no noticeable reduction in engine performance.
Now I do also know that these engine were designed and tested on 10W30. Buy the time the engine was actualy put into production the corporate trend was to use 5W30 any wear they could. So the engines oil pump and only the oil pump was re-clearanced to improve it's ability to pump 5W30.
Seeing how new these engines are their is not a lot of data to pull from. I am going to make a leap of faith though and say that people runing 5W30 at HWY speeds regulary will end up with pronounced oil burning/consumption by 120,000 miles.
These new engines from DC also employ the almost naked piston with rings almost on the crowns. TO date knocking has not been an issue but this design agrevates ring wear and bore wear so we should see these symptoms soon if DC did not get it right. I have to add that I really like the 3.7V6 and 4.7V8. These engines are wounderful!
P.S. Just so people do not think that I am being biased I will also site my contempt for Toyota doing the same thing with their piston and ring design on some of their newer I4's!
Diamler-Chrysler's standard of service or life cycle expectation for all of it's new engine's 4.7,3.7 and 5.7 is 150,000 miles. So they have designed and tested these engines to ensure that 70% or more of these engines will meet or exceed this target millage with no noticeable reduction in engine performance.
Now I do also know that these engine were designed and tested on 10W30. Buy the time the engine was actualy put into production the corporate trend was to use 5W30 any wear they could. So the engines oil pump and only the oil pump was re-clearanced to improve it's ability to pump 5W30.
Seeing how new these engines are their is not a lot of data to pull from. I am going to make a leap of faith though and say that people runing 5W30 at HWY speeds regulary will end up with pronounced oil burning/consumption by 120,000 miles.
These new engines from DC also employ the almost naked piston with rings almost on the crowns. TO date knocking has not been an issue but this design agrevates ring wear and bore wear so we should see these symptoms soon if DC did not get it right. I have to add that I really like the 3.7V6 and 4.7V8. These engines are wounderful!
P.S. Just so people do not think that I am being biased I will also site my contempt for Toyota doing the same thing with their piston and ring design on some of their newer I4's!
The piston rings we're moved closer to the crown for emmission purposes. In fact engine designs today have to take in account emmissions, fuel economy, manufacturing economy, etc, etc, and meet EPA mandates. Yes, it would be nice if they built engines to last 1,000,000 miles, but I wouldn't count on any time soon.
That's what I like about used cars that had complementary dealer service for a few years. All records are computerized and there is no need for Jiffy Lube or excuse for missing a service when the dealer does it for free. Audi was the first to introduce complementary service in 1987.
As far as the whole oci thing being tied to mileage, I reject that hair-splitting method of counting the miles and wondering what the exact optimal oci is, in favour of six-month intervals with a premium oil.
[ December 31, 2003, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: TSoA ]
Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
Now I do also know that these engine were designed and tested on 10W30. Buy the time the engine was actualy put into production the corporate trend was to use 5W30 any wear they could. So the engines oil pump and only the oil pump was re-clearanced to improve it's ability to pump 5W30.
Seeing how new these engines are their is not a lot of data to pull from. I am going to make a leap of faith though and say that people runing 5W30 at HWY speeds regulary will end up with pronounced oil burning/consumption by 120,000 miles.
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If this assumption is true, then why aren't the UOA's showing less increased wear using the 10w30 over the 5w30, or even the 5w20?
Other's on this forum have claimed no noticable difference's in the UOA's between these weights, but place the most importantance between the different brands of oil.
easttexan, Their are some very different UOA results from one weight of oil to another in the same engine. If you have not found them I think you might need to look harder. Off the top of my head you could try looking at UOA of CHevron Supreem every 10W30 UOA is better then the previous 5W30.
I think one problem is that a lot of people stick with one weight. Let say you take someone with a well documented engine and have them try different weights of oil from xW20 up to 15W50 of the same brand of oil. I can gurantee that you will see differing results in the UOA. I will stipulate that only a weight of oil apropreaite for ambient temps is going to be used for testing.
THe problem is that it is hard to get someone on this site to try thin to thick!! As an example Patman will not put 5W20 in his engine and I doubt he would put 15W50 in it either. I do not blame him I would not put a 20Wt in anything I own either!
I would have you ask what problem does a conventional 5W30 solve? Why is it that GM recomends 5W30 across the board but does not in the 3800 in my 1997 Lasaber? Why do all the GTP's get 10W30 as well 3800 with forced induction? Why has engine life not increased in the past 15 years at all? Why are we seeing more sludgeing issues now in all makes? Why are we seeing more oil consumption issues then ever before?
My experinces are my own and are based on observation. I have seen no good come out of 5W20 or 5W30 in the past. Thin oil cults have only been around a short time and realy have proven nothing yet. I am still waiting for all of these Honda's and Ford Trucks that are now recomending 5W20 to hit 300,000 with out looking like a a smoke generator on a Tank or Bradley Fighting Vechile!! I know I can take any new Toyota off the lot and run it on a steady diet of 15W50 M1 in the warm months and 10W30 M1 in the winter months and get to 300,000 no problem!
Do search on oil consuption in most cases you will find a combination of high speed hwy driveing and conventional 5W30 for most of the car or trucks life! In most cases people seem to notice it at around 120,000 miles!
To date we have had one person brave enough to test a 20Wt oil out in a vechile that does not recomend a 20Wt and it does not look good so far.
We have also seen that engines used in Europe and Asia are useing thicker oil in identical engines used her in the North America. SO this also alludes to other factors besides just protection being used to set the recomendation of oil weight.
I have seen Ken4's cars do well on xW40,xW50,xW60 oils. If I have the same engine assembled in the same plant in Japan the same year and mine does just as well on xW20 in UOA does that mean that all weights of oils protect equally? If anything it is a testament to the wounderful design and build of that engine. I think that you will almost always notice that if an engine shows great UOA number it will do it almost all the time with almost any oil. The engines that do the best on hear are newer Toyota's,Subaru's, Benz, Dodge 4.7V8 and domestic engines that have been blue printed and ballanced!
If you are looking for peer reviewed, double blind study with a large control to confirm my observation you will be waiting a while! Who would benifit from such a study? Who would pay for it?
I think one problem is that a lot of people stick with one weight. Let say you take someone with a well documented engine and have them try different weights of oil from xW20 up to 15W50 of the same brand of oil. I can gurantee that you will see differing results in the UOA. I will stipulate that only a weight of oil apropreaite for ambient temps is going to be used for testing.
THe problem is that it is hard to get someone on this site to try thin to thick!! As an example Patman will not put 5W20 in his engine and I doubt he would put 15W50 in it either. I do not blame him I would not put a 20Wt in anything I own either!
I would have you ask what problem does a conventional 5W30 solve? Why is it that GM recomends 5W30 across the board but does not in the 3800 in my 1997 Lasaber? Why do all the GTP's get 10W30 as well 3800 with forced induction? Why has engine life not increased in the past 15 years at all? Why are we seeing more sludgeing issues now in all makes? Why are we seeing more oil consumption issues then ever before?
My experinces are my own and are based on observation. I have seen no good come out of 5W20 or 5W30 in the past. Thin oil cults have only been around a short time and realy have proven nothing yet. I am still waiting for all of these Honda's and Ford Trucks that are now recomending 5W20 to hit 300,000 with out looking like a a smoke generator on a Tank or Bradley Fighting Vechile!! I know I can take any new Toyota off the lot and run it on a steady diet of 15W50 M1 in the warm months and 10W30 M1 in the winter months and get to 300,000 no problem!
Do search on oil consuption in most cases you will find a combination of high speed hwy driveing and conventional 5W30 for most of the car or trucks life! In most cases people seem to notice it at around 120,000 miles!
To date we have had one person brave enough to test a 20Wt oil out in a vechile that does not recomend a 20Wt and it does not look good so far.
We have also seen that engines used in Europe and Asia are useing thicker oil in identical engines used her in the North America. SO this also alludes to other factors besides just protection being used to set the recomendation of oil weight.
I have seen Ken4's cars do well on xW40,xW50,xW60 oils. If I have the same engine assembled in the same plant in Japan the same year and mine does just as well on xW20 in UOA does that mean that all weights of oils protect equally? If anything it is a testament to the wounderful design and build of that engine. I think that you will almost always notice that if an engine shows great UOA number it will do it almost all the time with almost any oil. The engines that do the best on hear are newer Toyota's,Subaru's, Benz, Dodge 4.7V8 and domestic engines that have been blue printed and ballanced!
If you are looking for peer reviewed, double blind study with a large control to confirm my observation you will be waiting a while! Who would benifit from such a study? Who would pay for it?
Hmmm...isn't the Sludge-O-Matic I a Toyota and Sludge-O-Matic II, Chrysler-Daimler, in other words a Dodge?
Other than that, a well written post.
Patman
Staff member
You are partially correct, I definitely wouldn't use 5w20 in my Firebird, but I am curious to see how 15w50 would do but I'd only try it in summer. Some day I might just try doing a viscosity test, starting out with a 5w30 or 0w30, then trying 0w40 or 5w40, then 15w50. But I'd have to do all three viscosities in the summer, which would necessitate very short intervals of each, making the data less accurate.
I agree with John that 5w30 dino oils are not all that great, but they are better than they used to be. If using dino, 10w30 is still your safest bet. When it comes to synthetics though, I feel 10w30 is obsolete, since there are so many totally stable 0w30s and 5w30s out there, so you get better flow in the cold and you get shear stability. If your engine isn't thinning out a 0w30 oil (such as the case with my engine and GC 0w30) then what benefits would you get by going to 10w30? (especially since GC only comes in 0w30, there is no GC 10w30)
Kestas
Staff member
I asked one of the oil experts I work with about specifying OCI. He said that at least for transmission fluid, they run the dyno and sample the fluid until it reaches a specific acid amount. Then they know how many hours the fluid is good for. I imagine they have a formula to translate this into miles. Perhaps they do the same for motor oil.
Patman, I think you are righter than you realize. Unzip that file I sent you and compare the 5W and 10W oils...dino and synthetic. What I saw was that the dino 10W30's were noticeably better than the dino 5W30's...but it was reversed with the synthetic oils...syn 5W30's showed lower wear than the syn 10W30 viscosity. 5W20 oil as a whole was right in the middle of the pack.
Of course those averages are from single UOA's, no long term tests.
Of course those averages are from single UOA's, no long term tests.
Castrol GTX has a deal through Toyota that if you change your oil and filter every 4000 miles or 4 months using dino 5W30 GTX for (my new 4runner V8) Castrol will warrant my engine for 300,000 miles agains't any failure due to lubrication. What do you guys think??? I doubt I will own my 4runner longer than 6 years or 90K miles but I figured I might follow this change interval using their oil since Castrol GTX is what they put in the Toyota 4.7 V8 at the factory.
If had a new Toyota I'd do it.
Read the warranty very, very carefully. Find out exactly what you have to do to keep the warranty in effect and what things you could inadvertantly do that would void the warranty. Does an oil change at 4001 miles void the warranty? What are the documentaion requirements to prove that you did the oil changes?
Also get their written definition of lubrication related failure and what you have to do to prove that it was a lubrication related failure.
Castrol is esentially charging nothing for this warranty , so they expect to pay out essentially nothing in warranty costs. Do you want to bet against them?
Weasel word alert! If your rings wear out, valve guides become loose, camshaft wears out, etc. then these are not due to lubrication. The wear is simply wear and is not caused by a lubrication failure.
AMSOIL uses this same kind of misleading wording to make people think that they are getting a warranty against engine failure. Bzzzt, not!
John
The only company which has published anything about this subject for the public is GM visa-vis their oil life monitor system.
In any case, I do not believe that exhaustive lab-coat work is being done to develop the typical recommendations. If it were, then we would not see companies like Honda recommending very different viscosity grades and oil change intervals depending on marketing regions. Honda Canada and Honda USA have different OCIs based simply on where the person buys the car. Same car, different spec. Ergo more than careful engineering is behind it. Honda specs 10W-30 for most of their engines in most of the world, yet specs 5W-20 in the USA. There has to be more than engineering in play there as well.
Toyota released sludge prone engines onto the market along with very long OCI recommendations which turned out to be a troublesome combination for many customers. I doubt that thousands of hours of careful engineering analysis led to that result!
John
In any case, I do not believe that exhaustive lab-coat work is being done to develop the typical recommendations. If it were, then we would not see companies like Honda recommending very different viscosity grades and oil change intervals depending on marketing regions. Honda Canada and Honda USA have different OCIs based simply on where the person buys the car. Same car, different spec. Ergo more than careful engineering is behind it. Honda specs 10W-30 for most of their engines in most of the world, yet specs 5W-20 in the USA. There has to be more than engineering in play there as well.
Toyota released sludge prone engines onto the market along with very long OCI recommendations which turned out to be a troublesome combination for many customers. I doubt that thousands of hours of careful engineering analysis led to that result!
John
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