Horizon Labs reluctant to do particle count testing on engine oils?

[dezlpwr]

I'm wanting to add a particle count test to my Horizon labs UOA to see how well my K&P reusable oil filter did and I'm getting pushback from them and they are reluctant to do it. They said they typically don't do particle count tests on engine oils as the oil is typically too dark for the laser that does the testing to accurately see and measure the particles in the oil. They say that this test is typically done on hydraulic oils or similar "clearer" oils. I have seen numerous people on here post engine oil UOAs with particle counts, and I was told that this is what I need to have done to most accurately measure how well my K&P oil filter is filtering the oil. I am now running a Fram Ultra filter and wanted to run the same OCI and also do a particle count to compare the two. Any thoughts on this?

 

[Greasymechtech]

Use a different lab

 

[Malo83]

Nothing better to do???

 

[tnt_motorsports]

I'm wanting to add a particle count test to my Horizon labs UOA to see how well my K&P reusable oil filter did and I'm getting pushback from them and they are reluctant to do it. They said they typically don't do particle count tests on engine oils as the oil is typically too dark for the laser that does the testing to accurately see and measure the particles in the oil. They say that this test is typically done on hydraulic oils or similar "clearer" oils. I have seen numerous people on here post engine oil UOAs with particle counts, and I was told that this is what I need to have done to most accurately measure how well my K&P oil filter is filtering the oil. I am now running a Fram Ultra filter and wanted to run the same OCI and also do a particle count to compare the two. Any thoughts on this?

I suppose you could try a different lab.

However, IMO I don’t see the value in a particle count on engine oil. The clearances in an engine are huge compared to even the most basic hydraulic systems on modern equipment. What is the end game if you get a UOA with a TBN? Won’t that tell you what you need to do?

Just my $0.02

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

I suppose you could try a different lab.

However, IMO I don’t see the value in a particle count on engine oil. The clearances in an engine are huge compared to even the most basic hydraulic systems on modern equipment. What is the end game if you get a UOA with a TBN? Won’t that tell you what you need to do?

Just my $0.02

He’s trying to see if the particle count shows that his filter is performing as it should, and that it’s keeping the oil “clean”. This is the kind of test that would show you that a Wix XP is not a great choice if you’re interested in clean oil.

 

[Propflux01]

I know Blackstone measures insolubles, while its not a numerical check, per se, it will tell you if your filter is actually filtering the oil. My UOA on a Elantra I used to own stated "Your Elantra LTD has outdone itself this time. Wear metals tested pretty low in the last sample, which is great, but aluminum and iron are even lower in this report. What's better than great? Amazing? This 1.8L Hyundai is wearing amazingly well! This Super Tech oil passed all of its physical tests, too. Viscosity is in the correct range for the oil type, the flashpoint test didn't turn up any excess fuel or moisture, and 0.2% insolubles demonstrate proper oil filtration, and the 4.0 TBN means there was plenty of active additive left over. A 7,000-mile oil run should work well"

insolubles % .02 I]

 

[Leo99]

It depends on what lab instruments they have. I've used Malvern for larger particles and QELS for smaller particles. They are good for measuring a particle size distribution but it's not an apples to apples comparison unless you're testing samples on the same type instrument. I had to dilute the samples out quite a bit to get the laser to get through to the sensors. We were interested in the particle size distribution, not total number of particles.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

I know Blackstone measures insolubles, while its not a numerical check, per se, it will tell you if your filter is actually filtering the oil. My UOA on a Elantra I used to own stated "Your Elantra LTD has outdone itself this time. Wear metals tested pretty low in the last sample, which is great, but aluminum and iron are even lower in this report. What's better than great? Amazing? This 1.8L Hyundai is wearing amazingly well! This Super Tech oil passed all of its physical tests, too. Viscosity is in the correct range for the oil type, the flashpoint test didn't turn up any excess fuel or moisture, and 0.2% insolubles demonstrate proper oil filtration, and the 4.0 TBN means there was plenty of active additive left over. A 7,000-mile oil run should work well"

insolubles % .02 I]

Insolubles doesn’t really tell you the whole story. You could have 0.2% insolubles in the 70-100 micron range and your engine would be destroying the bearings, or you could have 0.2% insolubles in the 4-10 micron range and your engine would likely be living a happy life.

 

[Ihatetochangeoil]

I have over a 10 year history of UOA thru Horizon labs; I can't remember for sure, I think it was 2016-17, somewhere in there, I was told (phone conversation with the lab manager at the time) that their machine which did the particle counts broke down and it was old, not sure they could get parts, they weren't going to repair it. Prior to that, I was running bypass filtration and I wanted particle counts on every sample I sent in.
I have since used Blackstone somewhat, but I am not a fan of their style of reports. Flame suit on.

 

[dezlpwr]

I have over a 10 year history of UOA thru Horizon labs; I can't remember for sure, I think it was 2016-17, somewhere in there, I was told (phone conversation with the lab manager at the time) that their machine which did the particle counts broke down and it was old, not sure they could get parts, they weren't going to repair it. Prior to that, I was running bypass filtration and I wanted particle counts on every sample I sent in.
I have since used Blackstone somewhat, but I am not a fan of their style of reports. Flame suit on.

 

[dezlpwr]

Well apparently it is working but they were reluctant to do it on used engine oil. I think they are still going to do it though. My oil is changed at only 3000mi due to high fuel dilution of my Subaru GDI engine, so the oil looks very clean. They definitely won't do the test on used diesel engine oil. I already tried that with my Cummins pickup. They said no way. I was with Blackstone for over 10 years and switched to Horizon for your same reasons plus their fuel dilution reporting is woefully low. That was the main factor for me in ditching them.

 

[volk06]

I'm wanting to add a particle count test to my Horizon labs UOA to see how well my K&P reusable oil filter did and I'm getting pushback from them and they are reluctant to do it. They said they typically don't do particle count tests on engine oils as the oil is typically too dark for the laser that does the testing to accurately see and measure the particles in the oil. They say that this test is typically done on hydraulic oils or similar "clearer" oils. I have seen numerous people on here post engine oil UOAs with particle counts, and I was told that this is what I need to have done to most accurately measure how well my K&P oil filter is filtering the oil. I am now running a Fram Ultra filter and wanted to run the same OCI and also do a particle count to compare the two. Any thoughts on this?

These types of labs usually have to be certified/accredited for the analyses they perform. I'm assuming they are probably not accredited to perform particle counts on engine oils and could be one contributing factor to the resistance.

The best option would be to try another provider that offers the test.

 

[dezlpwr]

These types of labs usually have to be certified/accredited for the analyses they perform. I'm assuming they are probably not accredited to perform particle counts on engine oils and could be one contributing factor to the resistance.

The best option would be to try another provider that offers the test.

Could be. I told them Blackstone does used engine oil and they said it most likely is done by some other ASTM method that wouldn't be as accurate. Probably true considering their track re led with fuel dilution. Horizon suggested this as an alternative, so I'm waiting for results and will post on here when I get them. Most likely today.

The lab has received your sample, however particle count cannot be performed on engine oil samples. When we spoke on the phone about adding particle count, I did not know this was an engine oil sample, otherwise I would have told you this test is not able to be done because engine oil samples are usually too dark for particle count to work. The only test that would be an option is particle quantifier (PQ Index). This test measures the ferrous concentration in the oil but it does not measure particle size. This test can tell you whether large wear particles are present, since ICP testing does not detect particles over about 5 micron. If PQ Index is high but wear metals are low on the report, there likely is an abnormal level of wear.

If you’d like to add this test, it would be $6.90.

Let me know what you’d like to do.

Thanks,