2012 Yaris - 10,600 miles - HPL PC5W30-Q with particle count

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This is part 2 of the previous oil analysis. The filter has been dissected here:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/donaldson-p551132-cut-open-new.378266/#post-6981129
The oil was drained:

A particle count was done to gauge filtration performance for this half of the oil service. While the filter did a decent job at keeping smaller particles down, a minor media breach from a manufacturing defect has confirmed the accuracy of WearCheck's particle count of detecting small levels of larger particles.

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Iron was pretty much only wear metal that trended upward with miles linearly, can be co-related to both filtration and driving behavior. I did flogged the engine spiritedly during this run. Viscosity trended upwards towards 12 at 11.9. The oil could have gone much longer even though oxidation numbers are up with an outstanding base number of 9.53 If I did choose to leave it in the sump.

Currently running 5W-40 SuperCar with a FRAM FE3600, yeah I know absolute @OVERKILL like this guy but hey. I'll likely return doing another run with this Donaldson Synteq filter another time, hopefully to see some normalized particle numbers without possible anomalies seen in this one.

Particle count > Particle size greater than

3158 > 4 microns
1720 > 6 microns
293 > 14 microns
99 > 21 microns
15 > 38 microns
2 > 71 microns

ISO4406 cleanliness code : 19/18/15
 
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Yeah against my better judgement the oil was certainly up to task! I'll sample again at 10k and 15k on the new oil run.
 
Honestly im not even aware what the oxidation service limits on this oil. @BrendanC report on a truck reported similar oxidation valves at just running close to 12k on the oil. its been very hot the past few months where we see ambient temperatures in the high 90s and low 100s in the region combined with long distance driving could be a factor.

This engine itself is rather special, it does not have an EGR Valve system to my surprise. Its naturally high revving for its displacement size.

Also want to add unfiltered contaminants will also be a factor.
 
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So the oxidation value is the oxidation value. If you have a virgin #, then see it climb +17, that is around when you want to change the oil. This is when nucleation begins. I suppose you could argue that with the high solvency and detergents it's not a problem, but I don't know if that is the case or not.

This is why Mobil, Amsoil and Castrol show test results from Sequence IIIH. It measures oxidation resistance. But you also have to corroborate that data with field data.
Here is the filter element close up after 2 day of drying. Dont see any buildup or hints of filter clogging.

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The oxidation may not be an issue if it's cleaning and the viscosity grade hasn't moved. That's what I'm trying to figure out. I'm hoping someone can chime in and clear it up.

In this UOA, everything else looks good which is why I'm second guessing whether the oxidation value is something of concern. It could be that the oil is about to jump up a grade.
Maybe @wwillson can chime in too since he's done very long service runs on HPL although, his experience is more on the HDEO side of things. Reading up his topics and experience on extended drains might give some insight.

The oil that came out if you saw the filter pull pictures from the oil change thread showed the oil visually in great shape, no large carbon chunk but tiny pieces of carbon solids and very little black goo were found at the bottom of the can, indicating there is some cleaning on-going with the oil.
 
Virgin oxidation values are all 23'ish. Oxidation is now 51. This oil is oxidizing rapidly and this is when deposits start to form.
No, the virgin oxidation values differ by quite a bit across HPL's line of oils. Unless the virgin oxidation value is known for this particular oil, then it's just a guess. Looking at the oxidation values and 5k and 10k miles, I would extrapolate the virgin oxidation value to be around 35. It's at 51 now which mean the normalized oxidation value is about 16, which is well below my condemnation oxidation value of ~30. Another good reason when you run a new oil to get a sample of oil with about an hour of run time, then you'll have a baseline to use.

With the high TBN, low oxidation value, and the known oxidative stability of HPL oils, I would run the oil until you see a reason not to from the data. As you may know, we run extended drains with HPL diesel oils in some very expensive Ag engines, backed by data.
 
I would extrapolate the virgin oxidation value to be around 35.
I don't think so. I ran the 5W20 from this oil family in my Prius for 5K. The oxidation value was 26.

 
The oxidation may not be an issue if it's cleaning and the viscosity grade hasn't moved. That's what I'm trying to figure out. I'm hoping someone can chime in and clear it up.

In this UOA, everything else looks good which is why I'm second guessing whether the oxidation value is something of concern. It could be that the oil is about to jump up a grade.

Reason why filter inspections are just as important when undergoing extended drain trials. Although in my case and per HPL recommendation of a new filter swap per 5K interval while keeping the oil in the sump is a safe observation practice. In this particular case WearCheck particle count seems slightly abnormal for a high efficiency filter (Donaldson rates this as a 17 micron absolute). Particle Count detected particles larger than 21 microns to as high as >71 microns. Contaminants in circulation not fully captured by the filter would also lead to a slight oxidation spike as well as they're part of the combustion byproducts.

Visual inspection showed nothing worrisome nor significant amount of free floating contaminants such as metal shavings or sludge formation precursors.

I appreciate your analytical replies and concerns.
 
I don't think so. I ran the 5W20 from this oil family in my Prius for 5K. The oxidation value was 26.

The problem is that you and I used different labs.

If I had a sample the PCMO 5w-30, I would send in a virgin sample. I'm willing to bet lunch the oxidation of virgin PCMO runs about 35 from Wearcheck.
 
The problem is that you and I used different labs.

If I had a sample the PCMO 5w-30, I would send in a virgin sample. I'm willing to bet lunch the oxidation of virgin PCMO runs about 35 from Wearcheck.
Are there different ASTM methods for measuring oxidation/nitration, or are we discussing lab variation?

I don't see how any reputable lab can be 50% off on the same test, but if different test methods are being employed, then I fully agree.
 
Are there different ASTM methods for measuring oxidation/nitration, or are we discussing lab variation?

I don't see how any reputable lab can be 50% off on the same test, but if different test methods are being employed, then I fully agree.
I'm not sure. Maybe someone here will know.
 
Unfortunately there can be large variations in labs. I have seen results from sending same samples pulled from a circulating tank of oil that are significantly different from each other. Wear Check was the closest to our own equipment which was one of the reasons we chose them.

On the particle count, This is a good report in fact
I would say it is a very good report. I have seen brand new unused hydraulic oils (that need to be clean) with more dirt in it than your sample. There is no issue here.

With respect to oxidation and nitration I believe our resident ester expert @Tom NJ has already addressed this topic and the short takeaway is there are hundreds of esters and it is not recommended to throw a blanket over them and call them the same. It is also not responsible to throw a single condemnation limit or rule out there and apply it across the board. I know what we use but have no idea what other companies use.

At the end of the day it is most important to focus on what an oil does more than what an oil is. And with the variation in labs a lot of times we are splitting hairs on things that have variation.

David
 
On the particle count, This is a good report in fact
I would say it is a very good report. I have seen brand new unused hydraulic oils (that need to be clean) with more dirt in it than your sample. There is no issue here.

I did get a second opinion yesterday night from someone who is a maintenance manager at a plant who regularly do equipment oil analysis and he was surprised at the ISO 4406 oil cleanliness rating for an oil sample that came out of a gasoline engine, which typically are dirtier than hydraulic oils even with small filter element manufacturing anomaly shown here.. He didn't believe it until I showed him the filter I was using. That Donaldson Synteq is good stuff.

Anyways, thank you for sharing your thoughts on these results. I wasn't concerned overly how the oil degraded as it was visually in great shape during the filter inspection with no deposits formation signs or sludge precursors spotted. Looking at the whole picture instead of small details, its a solid report, which I agreed with @RDY4WAR . I drained the oil because I set a limit breakpoint mileage range for sampling and drain schedule to 10,000 miles, Just my conservative incremental approach to extended drain service trials. I'm very impressed with your HP PCMO product line.

I like to think of this report as an exercise of the accumulation of contributed knowledge by fellow forum member such as @OVERKILL on the subject of niche high efficiency filtration media technology not commonly available to the light duty consumer aftermarket. Reading his post history about Donaldson and Amsoil shed a lot of light and changes that have occured in the filtration industry. @ZeeOSix on his topics of filtration efficiency co-relation of engine wear of extended drain services. And many others that I might have missed that add their own contribution to related discussion.

It doesn't end here and will continue to repeat the excersise to gather data at greater distances than this one. Thank you, David.

I see buster's at it again. :D
I think its healthy that he's curious to learn more about lubrication aging in service as he did add a lot to the discussion to bring it where it is now. EDIT: What happened to all his post?
 
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I did get a second opinion yesterday night from someone who is a maintenance manager at a plant who regularly do equipment oil analysis and he was surprised at the ISO 4406 oil cleanliness rating for an oil sample that came out of a gasoline engine, which typically are dirtier than hydraulic oils even with small filter element manufacturing anomaly shown here.. He didn't believe it until I showed him the filter I was using. That Donaldson Synteq is good stuff.

Anyways, thank you for sharing your thoughts on these results. I wasn't concerned overly how the oil degraded as it was visually in great shape during the filter inspection with no deposits formation signs or sludge precursors spotted. Looking at the whole picture instead of small details, its a solid report, which I agreed with @RDY4WAR . I drained the oil because I set a limit breakpoint mileage range for sampling and drain schedule to 10,000 miles, Just my conservative incremental approach to extended drain service trials. I'm very impressed with your HP PCMO product line.

I like to think of this report as an exercise of the accumulation of contributed knowledge by fellow forum member such as @OVERKILL on the subject of niche high efficiency filtration media technology not commonly available to the light duty consumer aftermarket. Reading his post history about Donaldson and Amsoil shed a lot of light and changes that have occured in the filtration industry. @ZeeOSix on his topics of filtration efficiency co-relation of engine wear of extended drain services. And many others that I might have missed that add their own contribution to related discussion.

It doesn't end here and will continue to repeat the excersise to gather data at greater distances than this one. Thank you, David.


I think its healthy that he's curious to learn more about lubrication aging in service as he did add a lot to the discussion to bring it where it is now. EDIT: What happened to all his post?
buster is awesome. He knows I am joking. He facilitates high quality discussions. We still have to address his premises here re oxidation.
 
buster is awesome. He knows I am joking. He facilitates high quality discussions. We still have to address his premises here re oxidation.

For someone as him who is very unbiased as far goes my observing judgement. Concerns and educated discussion about fluid in service degradation is a very valid topic of discussion. It may not mean much to the untrained eye or consumer but in industrial equipment industry its just as valid as it is here. I hope he is doing fine.
 
I thought my posts were a bit off-topic for the post so I had them removed. Wasn't necessary to get hyper focused on it. Thanks for sharing the UOA. (y)
 
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