Honda's reason for multiple oil changes 1 filter

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Originally Posted By: MrQuackers
Originally Posted By: Clevy

You guys who are so proud about your short intervals and 1 filter,and even brag about it in your sig shows just how much you care about the environment and the next generation who will have to clean up the mess.
Its like knowing your carbon footprint and your contribution to polluting the earth and saying you don't care,and even though the filter can be ran for longer you ignore that fact and toss it anyways. It says alot about you as a person.




OK, sell all your toys and ride a bike and drive a Geo Metro in the foul weather. Make sure it is the 5 speed for minimum impact on Gaia, praise be.

OMG! That is hilarious MrQuackers!
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3
FCI every other OCI:
pro - "used" filter is a known positive operator because if it's working right then it's likely to continue to work right .......


The ONLY part in your argument that I disagree on is that we don't have any way to verify if the filter is working right. A hole in the media, a stuck open bypass valve?

A pro of changing the filter every OCI would be that a defective filter would be on your engine for a lesser amount of time.

Just countering with another risk factor to consider, albeit very low.
 
We do have tools in the box to check with; PC, UOAs, etc. These are non-destructive tests that assure a filter is working adequately as intended. The two failure modes you mention, in particular, (however remote they would be), would result in very poor PC/ISO test results, and indirectly also effect UOA results.

I stand by my comments. A filter that is known to be operating properly is less of a risk than a "new" one that is only suspected of being able to operate properly. One is an assurance, the other a presumption.

Although an extreme example, would you change out head bolts or con-rod bolts, just because you thought they were "possibly" going to fail, and hope that the new bolts were simply a total assurance of success? The proof of current success of current products in use, is at least a "known" condition versus the "unknown" of assumption.
 
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3

I stand by my comments. A filter that is known to be operating properly is less of a risk than a "new" one that is only suspected of being able to operate properly. One is an assurance, the other a presumption.


As was mentioned earlier, how would you know if filter that's in use is "operating properly". And how would you know the new filter to go on is going to "operate properly"?

With spin-on filters, you would never know the shape it's in until you cut it open ... or I guess you could say it "operated properly" if the engine didn't blow-up.
wink.gif


I had a Purolator Classic that had a pretty good tear in the media, thereby allowing unfiltered oil to go past the media. That tear could have happened on initial start-up, or 5 miles before I changed it. I will never know ... all I know is that it wasn't operating properly at some point in it's use time.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix

As was mentioned earlier, how would you know if filter that's in use is "operating properly". And how would you know the new filter to go on is going to "operate properly"?



You would if you had a differential pressure gauge setup
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Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix

As was mentioned earlier, how would you know if filter that's in use is "operating properly". And how would you know the new filter to go on is going to "operate properly"?



You would if you had a differential pressure gauge setup
grin.gif



Yes, maybe for some things ... but probably still couldn't detect a tear in the media unless it was very big.
 
Originally Posted By: JOD
Can someone explain to me the issue that the "old" oil is going to cause? Most people don't even run the "old" oil to half of its useful service life anyway, and "old" old generally lubricates better than "new" oil anyway? Can anyone actually articulate a valid reason as to why leaving 1/2 a quart of oil in the engine is actually a bad thing (leaving "feelings" out of it for second).

  • Fuel contamination
  • Water contamination
  • Metal particulate contamination
  • Cost-benefit analysis

OK For the first three, 1/2 quart of slightly contaminated oil probably isn't a big deal with 3-4-5 quarts of fresh oil coming in on top of it. It's just not... optimal.

For the fourth, if you happen to start with a bad oil or failed filter, your engine only has to put up with it for one OCI. If you reuse either, then it's two (or more). That's the cost-benefit analysis that drives me to replace both at a regular oil change interval.

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
With spin-on filters, you would never know the shape it's in until you cut it open ... or I guess you could say it "operated properly" if the engine didn't blow-up.
wink.gif


I had a Purolator Classic that had a pretty good tear in the media, thereby allowing unfiltered oil to go past the media. That tear could have happened on initial start-up, or 5 miles before I changed it. I will never know ... all I know is that it wasn't operating properly at some point in it's use time.


We'll never know, but pre-filling the oil filter should prevent most media blowouts, unless it is just substandard media to begin with. But this is a good argument for 1:1 changes; a bad filter can only be bad for the interval it is allowed to remain on the engine.

Originally Posted By: Clevy
On a known dirty engine of course more frequent filter changes are required however if you know your engines clean,and you throw out your filter before 10000kms anyways you tell me more about yourself than words ever could.


The manufacture of one new automobile, or one replacement engine for that matter, has a huge environmental impact, from the mining, refining of the metals to the energy used for transportation of raw materials, parts, and finished products.

The environmental impact of maintenance MUST be balanced against the environmental impact of unneeded and avoidable repairs and replacements, and also considering the pollution created by engines pushed past their optimal lifetimes, where the definition of optimal lifetime is greatly defined by the quality of maintenance.

Even if you choose to dismiss or disregard the positive environmental impact of avoiding substandard maintenance ("tip top condition"), simply cutting out the filter, leaving the parts to drain in the funnel overnight, and recycling the steel takes care of the majority of environmental objections of 1:1 oil and filter changes. It gets more oil into recycling (and out of our groundwater) than tossing a 2-OCI filter uncut into the landfill, and the recycled steel has huge environmental advantages over mined and refined iron ore.

HF
 
Originally Posted By: HangFire

  • Fuel contamination
  • Water contamination
  • Metal particulate contamination
  • Cost-benefit analysis

OK For the first three, 1/2 quart of slightly contaminated oil probably isn't a big deal with 3-4-5 quarts of fresh oil coming in on top of it. It's just not... optimal.


None of these first three are major factors in a well maintained engine. Look at a whole bunch of UOAs from healthy, well maintained engines and you will see that a small amount of oil that is still pretty good at the kind OCIs we are talking about (5K-7.5K) because modern engines are so much cleaner running than they once were and oil is so much better. And remember, in the case of Honda at least, this procedure has corporate blessings which leads one to conclude they have looked into the matter with enough thoroughness to go on the record with it.

Originally Posted By: HangFire


For the fourth, if you happen to start with a bad oil or failed filter, your engine only has to put up with it for one OCI. If you reuse either, then it's two (or more). That's the cost-benefit analysis that drives me to replace both at a regular oil change interval.


True in a worst case sense but what are the odds? What are the odds of a new filter failing and what are the odds of one failing in service? It happens but I would guess that an actual materials failure is a low single-digit- percentage occurrence industry wide. Are there stats???

Originally Posted By: HangFire

We'll never know, but pre-filling the oil filter should prevent most media blowouts, unless it is just substandard media to begin with. But this is a good argument for 1:1 changes; a bad filter can only be bad for the interval it is allowed to remain on the engine.


I would submit the first start after OC is one of the least likely times for media failure. A very cold start with a loaded filter and too many revs would be first on my list. Having been observing differential pressure in a 5.4L Ford dynamically for a year, I can say that high DP is not all that common and I think media blowout is a slight risk with most engines.

The environmental impact of the used filters exists but I am kinda "meh" on it. I kinda agree with your thinking on that issue. You've gone 90 percent of the way if you see to it that the filter is drained and disposed of properly and not dumped with the rest of the junk by the river.

To me the issue is more that people don't run long enough OCIs in the first place. Why run two 5Ks on the oil and a 10K on the filter, thus throwing away oil that very likely has a lot of life left. Run 10K and be done with it! Today, that is VERY possible with many, if not most, recently minted vehicle.
 
The delta-P across the media is the same on an initial dry filter start-up as it is on a start-up after the filter has been filled with oil. Of course, I'm talking about with the same parameters as oil temp/viscosity, engine RPM at start-up, etc.

I know some think that because there is no oil "back pressure" on the filter that they think the delta-P across the media is greater on a dry filter start-up, but that's not true. The delta-P is only dependent on the media flow performance, oil viscosity and oil flow volume ... which all remain the same regardless if there is back pressure on the filter or not.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
The delta-P across the media is the same on an initial dry filter start-up as it is on a start-up after the filter has been filled with oil. Of course, I'm talking about with the same parameters as oil temp/viscosity, engine RPM at start-up, etc.

I know some think that because there is no oil "back pressure" on the filter that they think the delta-P across the media is greater on a dry filter start-up, but that's not true. The delta-P is only dependent on the media flow performance, oil viscosity and oil flow volume ... which all remain the same regardless if there is back pressure on the filter or not.


So what you're saying is you get a high volume/low resistance situation where large volumes of oil flow in, barely changing the incoming pressure sensor, the outgoing might sense no more than slightly pressurized air and so tracks the incoming pressure, both very very low, until they both suddenly go up together when the system fills.

So, yeah, I wouldn't expect delta P to change until it was full.

That doesn't change the fact that the media is highly permeable to air and not so permeable to oil.
 
Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
The delta-P across the media is the same on an initial dry filter start-up as it is on a start-up after the filter has been filled with oil. Of course, I'm talking about with the same parameters as oil temp/viscosity, engine RPM at start-up, etc.

I know some think that because there is no oil "back pressure" on the filter that they think the delta-P across the media is greater on a dry filter start-up, but that's not true. The delta-P is only dependent on the media flow performance, oil viscosity and oil flow volume ... which all remain the same regardless if there is back pressure on the filter or not.


So what you're saying is you get a high volume/low resistance situation where large volumes of oil flow in, barely changing the incoming pressure sensor, the outgoing might sense no more than slightly pressurized air and so tracks the incoming pressure, both very very low, until they both suddenly go up together when the system fills.

So, yeah, I wouldn't expect delta P to change until it was full.

That doesn't change the fact that the media is highly permeable to air and not so permeable to oil.


The "oil pressure" you see on the car's dash is not the same as the "delta-P" pressure across the oil filter. You would need a fancy delta-P sensor (or dual sensors) across the filter like Jim Allen has on his truck to see the delta-P across the oil filter.

The delta-P across the filter will be the same regardless if you have engine oil pressure or not. The delta-P across the filter is dependent on the oil volume and the oil flow going through the filter ... really nothing else.

So, if 4 GPM of 5W-30 oil at 70 deg F caused a 6 PSI delta-P across the filter, it wouldn't matter if the outlet of the filter was puking oil out into the atmosphere, or sending the oil down the engine's oiling system which might show 50 PSI on the engine oil pressure sensor down stream of the filter.

Delta-P is delta-P across the filter ... it doesn't matter if there is zero "back pressure" (ie, the engine's oil pressure as seen on the oil pressure sensor), or 200 PSI of engine oil back pressure.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix

The delta-P across the filter will be the same regardless if you have engine oil pressure or not. The delta-P across the filter is dependent on the oil volume and the oil flow going through the filter ... really nothing else.


That is true only if the system is already full of oil. If on one side the sensor is just sitting in air and the other side is freely pumping oil with little to no resistance, delta P is essentially nothing but that has nothing to do with what the media is experiencing, due to the factor you keep ignoring, media air permeability versus oil.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix

The delta-P across the filter will be the same regardless if you have engine oil pressure or not.


Unless there's no flow yet... lol

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix

The delta-P across the filter is dependent on the oil volume and the oil flow going through the filter ... really nothing else.


That is true only if the system is already full of oil. If on one side the sensor is just sitting in air and the other side is freely pumping oil with little to no resistance from the oil distribution system, delta P first expresses only the media resistance to air (air permeability), once the air is gone, delta P expresses media resistance to oil (oil permeability)- which, as you pointed out, stays the same through different operating conditions.[/quote]
 
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Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix

The delta-P across the filter will be the same regardless if you have engine oil pressure or not. The delta-P across the filter is dependent on the oil volume and the oil flow going through the filter ... really nothing else.


That is true only if the system is already full of oil. If on one side the sensor is just sitting in air and the other side is freely pumping oil with little to no resistance, delta P is essentially nothing but that has nothing to do with what the media is experiencing, due to the factor you keep ignoring, media air permeability versus oil.


I wasn't ignoring the factor of air verses oil permeability of the media. I was talking about oil going through the media - after all the air has been evacuated. If you pumped air through the filter it too would actually create a delta-P across the media, but it would be very very small. Since oil is much less viscous than air, then the delta-P with oil will be greater compared to air at the same volumetric flow.

What I'm talking about is that it doesn't matter if there is back pressure of oil (due to the engine's oiling circuit) on the outlet side of the filter (or not) when it comes to the delta-P across the media. The delta-P across the media is only dependent on the flow rate and the viscosity of the fluid going through the media, regardless if it's air, oil, honey or molasses.

If you have 5 GPM of flow with filter inlet gauge pressure of 5 PSI and outlet pressure of 0 (ie, atmospheric pressure), then the filter delta-P is 5 PSID.

If you have 5 GPM of flow with filter inlet gauge pressure of 75 PSI and outlet pressure of 70 (ie, engine oil pressure), then the filter delta-P is 5 PSID.

Oil flow volume and viscosity is the same for each example above. What I'm trying to convey is that delta-P across the filter doesn't care what the down stream/back pressure is on the filter's outlet side. The delta-P across the filter is only dependent on the fluid flow rate and viscosity.
 
From the owner's manual of my 2001 CR-V:

-Normal Conditions Maintenance Schedule (page 202)
Replace oil filter every:
15k miles, 24k kilometers, or 12 months, whichever comes first

Replace oil every:
7.5k miles, 12k kilometers, or 12 months, whichever comes first

"If you only occasionally drive under a severe condition, you should follow the Normal Conditions Maintenance Schedule."

*******
-Severe Conditions Maintenance Schedule (page 204)
Replace engine oil AND filter every:
3,750 miles, 6,000 kilometers, or 6 months


"U.S. Owners, Follow the Severe Conditions Maintenance Schedule if you drive your vehicle mainly under one or more of the following conditions:
-Driving less than 5 miles (8 km) per trip or, in freezing temperatures, less than 10 miles (16 km) per trip
-Driving in extremely hot (over 90*F/32*C) conditions
-Extensive idling or long periods of stop and go driving
-Trailer towing, driving with a roof rack, or driving in mountainous conditions
-Driving on muddy, dusty, or de-iced roads

Canadian Owners, Follow the Maintenance Schedule for Severe Conditions"

The manual calls for 4 quarts of SJ "Energy Conserving" 5W-30 for an oil change.



Granted, the manual is 12+ years old and SJ oil has been surpassed by SL, SM, and SN oils that are generally considered better in every way, at least for this application. Honda still sells A01 and A02 filters, but whether they have been improved I don't know.

Taking the manual at face value, it seems like most users would fall under the severe schedule. Urban drivers see stop and go traffic while most of the continental US sees 90* degree days with regularity during the summer. What percentage of the population lives and operates under such conditions? 75%? More?

OTOH, would M1 or PU and a NAPA Platinum or Fram Ultra last 10k miles or more more the majority of users under most conditions? Probably.
 
I could see if the Honda oil filter was $200, but it's $8 and easily accessible, change it every oil change.

I would actually go the other way around. I would use quality synthetic oil, change the oil every 12K and the filter every 6K.

It amazes me that people will spend $30K on a car and then be an ultra cheapskate in maintaining it.

Oil and filters are cheap compared to engine repairs.
 
Originally Posted By: tig1
For the extra cost(maybe 2 cents or less per day at 10K OCIs)I won't put 4 qts of new oil mixed with 1/4 to 1/2 of old oil. Honda should know better than this silly argument.

What's wrong with old oil in there, other than an antiquated belief that you need to get out as much used oil as possible? I'd hope that by the time the oil is changed, the used oil is still protecting the engine and the additives haven't been totally depleted. An oil change is primarily replenishing the oil's additives and putting in new base oil. You're renewing it and not completely replacing it. You've got a filter to keep out stuff that will damage the engine if allowed to recirculate. I've thought that a good idea might even be to have an oiling system where only half the oil is removed on each oil change. I've heard reports that engine wear actually goes up after an oil change for a few hundred miles - primarily because the antiwear additives take time to heat activate. The only difficulty of that is when changing oil weights or worries about incompatibilities if the new oil is vastly different than the old oil. Automatic transmissions universally deal with old fluid.

There's typically more oil than that left in a car even after a full drain. So there's 1/4 quart of oil in a filter that stays in there. How big a deal is that when there's already a half quart or more that remains in the oil galleys or sitting on top of the valve train? Recently I've shined a light in the filler cap of my wife's Civic. You can see several of the valves and the valve lash adjustment. There's lots and lots of oil still there, including in some areas where it will remain there indefinitely because it's physically trapped and not removed until oil from the sump is splashed there and displaces it.

This was a fun discussion on this issue of oil remaining in the engine after most of the oil drained. The consensus was that a brand new engine might need anywhere from a half quart to 1.5 quarts more oil than required for a "full" oil change with filter. One guy looked at his Civic's owner's manual, which specified an oil capacity of 4.7 quarts but a full oil change (with filter) at 3.9 quarts. So what's the practical difference between 0.8 quarts of the existing oil remaining and 1.0 quarts?

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1165846&page=all

With my wife's Civic, the total capacity is 4.4 quarts but with a full oil change capacity of 3.4 quarts and an oil only change of 3.2 quarts. So about 23% of the old oil remains there after a regular oil change with filter, and 28% without a filter change.

honda.com/assets/OWNERLINK/Model/own_man/2002CivicSd.pdf

I think there's an old expression to describe arguments of little significance. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? We're debating if a quarter quart of oil left in an oil filter is creating more wear, when there's already a full quart or more of oil left behind. They've already thought of that oil and figure it's not reducing longevity. In fact I think it's probably helpful for longevity because the remaining oil already has activated antiwear additives and because it helps protect engine parts before oil pressure is built up. I doubt you'd actually want to start with every last bit of oil teleported out of there and new oil poured in the engine. The people designing these engines are fully cognizant that there will be old oil left in there regardless of whether or not the filter is removed.
 
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: tig1
For the extra cost(maybe 2 cents or less per day at 10K OCIs)I won't put 4 qts of new oil mixed with 1/4 to 1/2 of old oil. Honda should know better than this silly argument.

What's wrong with old oil in there, other than an antiquated belief that you need to get out as much used oil as possible? I'd hope that by the time the oil is changed, the used oil is still protecting the engine and the additives haven't been totally depleted. An oil change is primarily replenishing the oil's additives and putting in new base oil. You're renewing it and not completely replacing it. You've got a filter to keep out stuff that will damage the engine if allowed to recirculate. I've thought that a good idea might even be to have an oiling system where only half the oil is removed on each oil change. I've heard reports that engine wear actually goes up after an oil change for a few hundred miles - primarily because the antiwear additives take time to heat activate. The only difficulty of that is when changing oil weights or worries about incompatibilities if the new oil is vastly different than the old oil. Automatic transmissions universally deal with old fluid.

There's typically more oil than that left in a car even after a full drain. So there's 1/4 quart of oil in a filter that stays in there. How big a deal is that when there's already a half quart or more that remains in the oil galleys or sitting on top of the valve train? Recently I've shined a light in the filler cap of my wife's Civic. You can see several of the valves and the valve lash adjustment. There's lots and lots of oil still there, including in some areas where it will remain there indefinitely because it's physically trapped and not removed until oil from the sump is splashed there and displaces it.

This was a fun discussion on this issue of oil remaining in the engine after most of the oil drained. The consensus was that a brand new engine might need anywhere from a half quart to 1.5 quarts more oil than required for a "full" oil change with filter. One guy looked at his Civic's owner's manual, which specified an oil capacity of 4.7 quarts but a full oil change (with filter) at 3.9 quarts. So what's the practical difference between 0.8 quarts of the existing oil remaining and 1.0 quarts?

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1165846&page=all

With my wife's Civic, the total capacity is 4.4 quarts but with a full oil change capacity of 3.4 quarts and an oil only change of 3.2 quarts. So about 23% of the old oil remains there after a regular oil change with filter, and 28% without a filter change.

honda.com/assets/OWNERLINK/Model/own_man/2002CivicSd.pdf

I think there's an old expression to describe arguments of little significance. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? We're debating if a quarter quart of oil left in an oil filter is creating more wear, when there's already a full quart or more of oil left behind. They've already thought of that oil and figure it's not reducing longevity. In fact I think it's probably helpful for longevity because the remaining oil already has activated antiwear additives and because it helps protect engine parts before oil pressure is built up. I doubt you'd actually want to start with every last bit of oil teleported out of there and new oil poured in the engine. The people designing these engines are fully cognizant that there will be old oil left in there regardless of whether or not the filter is removed.

"One Filter, One OCI!"
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