Honda/Multi-Vehicle ATF Comparison Chart

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jayjr1105

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Originally Posted by 2010Civic
Supports my decision to stick with OEM fluid.
For warranty purposes I agree with sticking with DW1. After 100K if you're fixing up an old Accord for a college kid, no reason you can't use Maxlife. I'm using Maxlife in my Odyssey right now. 3 dump and fills so all 9 quarts basically. It's shifted great for the last 20K.
 
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Originally Posted by 2010Civic
Supports my decision to stick with OEM fluid.
Unless its a dex III or dex VI using OE spec is the best thing IMO. The universals fluids seem geared more to the dex fluid specs.
 
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Originally Posted by jayjr1105
I thought this would be helpful just for comparison sake. I'd love to add more data to this, perhaps Castrol Import Forumula, Beck Arnley Z1, and the newer Blue bottle Valvoline Import formula (non hi-mi formula) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QHBh4pMGYzeo2On06upZpYeTgwD9falcI8Vm8GXcK4U/edit?usp=sharing If you have VOA data to add to this, message me about editing permission (assuming you know how to use google docs) or just post the data and I'll add it.
Here is an old post with the Castrol Import. I don't know if the formula has changed since then but perhaps others have further info. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1665557/VOA_Castrol_Import_Multi-Vehic
 
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jayjr1105

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MolaKule messaged me with Mobil 1 HP so it's been added to the current chart. Really curious to get the Beck Arnley Z1 or Import Valvoline blue bottle in there. Feel free to message me or simply post it here and I'll update.
 
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Originally Posted by RyanY
I don't know if the formula has changed since then but perhaps others have further info.
If there were any changes, they'd be pretty minimal. Any meaningful change in the formula would likely mean changes in recommendations or even a name change. Then again, someone posted a VOA in that same thread and there's a 35+% difference in Boron and 16% difference in Phosphorus between the two.
 
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Originally Posted by RyanY
Here is an old post with the Castrol Import. I don't know if the formula has changed since then but perhaps others have further info. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1665557/VOA_Castrol_Import_Multi-Vehic
As I mentioned above, that thread has (2) VOAs of Castrol's Import ATF. They're older but seem to be the only ones available here (the site's search tool doesn't let you search past 3 years ?!?!). Here's the average of the two:
Code
Aluminum 0
Chromium 0
Copper 0
Iron 0.5
Lead 0.5
Nickel 0
Manganese 0
Molybdenum 0.5
Potassium 0
Silicon 8
Silver 0
Sodium 1
Tin 0
Titanium 0
Boron 120
Magnesium 0
Calcium 0.5
Phosphorous 234
Zinc 1
Barium 0
			
Viscosity	8.01
 
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Excellent information. Seems like the Magnesium additive really stands out in the Honda OEM fluid, why did they chose that specific additive over others? Anyone know the reasons, seems to me like it is due to the unique design of the Honda automatic unit. They do have clutch packs like a traditional manual right? So maybe helps limits dissolution of the friction material from just sitting in the fluid? I also have another question, does anyone have a fresh fluid analysis of the old Honda Z-1 fluid? I've never seen that but looked everywhere!
 
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Originally Posted by AC1DD
I also have another question, does anyone have a fresh fluid analysis of the old Honda Z-1 fluid? I've never seen that but looked everywhere!
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/868342/VOA_for_Honda_ATF-Z1_!
 
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Originally Posted by RyanY
Originally Posted by AC1DD
I also have another question, does anyone have a fresh fluid analysis of the old Honda Z-1 fluid? I've never seen that but looked everywhere!
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/868342/VOA_for_Honda_ATF-Z1_!
The image is impossible to see since it was uploaded with photobucket..do you have a clear image of the results?
 
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Originally Posted by AC1DD
Excellent information. Seems like the Magnesium additive really stands out in the Honda OEM fluid, why did they chose that specific additive over others? Anyone know the reasons, seems to me like it is due to the unique design of the Honda automatic unit. They do have clutch packs like a traditional manual right? So maybe helps limits dissolution of the friction material from just sitting in the fluid? I also have another question, does anyone have a fresh fluid analysis of the old Honda Z-1 fluid? I've never seen that but looked everywhere!
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/5169998 Whole lot of Honda ATF Discssion there, and I will offer my opinion here (Its also over there). Back during the early 2000's Honda was moving more upmarket with their cars. They needed 'smoother' shifting transmissions in order for people to accept them as more luxury. According to Mola, the Zinc that is in the Z1/DW1 formulations acts as a friction modifier. Looking at the design of some of the Honda transmissions over the years and looking at how they shift, there are a number of gearchanges where you will have 2 sets of clutches on the same shaft that need to engage and disengage at the same time or you will bind up the transmission and it will be jerky. If they don't switch fast enough, the shift will flare, also not good. If you have a fluid that lets the plates slip a little more, you smooth out that gearchange. No more jerks, happier customers. This is the advent of Z1 in the early 2000's. Right around the time Honda started having transmission problems. Z1, had an iffy base oil that sheared quickly, DW1 arrived with an improved base and much the same additive package. This was mid-2000's. Several transmissions were also redesigned (06 and up Accords for one). Fast forward to now and we have several manufacturers bottling 'specific' oils (Idemitsu/AISIN) and multi-use oils that are 'suitable for' replacing OEM DW1 (Maxlife/Etc.). The additives aren't the same, but the question becomes, do they need to be? If we assume that the Zinc is there for shift feel, then can other manufacturers do it without? In my opinion, probably. (In my experience with Idemitsu H+, my cars shift fine, is it the same as DW1? No clue, I've changed it gradually over many miles, there's no way to A/B compare) So, all the above is my opinion, here's me doubling down on that statement(the opinion part): You will likely not hurt your specced for DW1 transmission with any of the aftermarket fluids 'designed' or 'recommended for'. Keep the fluid changed and clean and you are doing what you need to. The only downside is that the transmission might not shift exactly the same as DW1, or maybe it will depending on who designed the fluid. Are harsher shifts 'bad'? I know I've always heard that a firm shift is easier on the transmission than a soft/squishy one. Take that for what you've paid for it, but I've been watching the DW1 discussion for quite some time now, have sent off and received emails from several companies on the subject, and thought about it more than any sane person probably should have. And as for what to call the transmission? Honda calls it an automatic. Other people call it an automated manual. I suppose whatever floats your boat. The gearchanges are performed with clutch packs, no bands, no suns, no planetaries....so I'm not sure what that makes it. I'll just stick with automatic.
 
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I don't think Mola discussed it that I've seen, but what function does the magnesium additive provide in the Honda DW-1
 
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Originally Posted by MolaKule
In AMT fluids, the Calcium and Magnesium serve as the main friction modifiers. The zinc compound is a Mult-Functional compound acting as an AW, corrosion inhibitor, and antioxidant.
 
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Originally Posted by ctechbob
Originally Posted by MolaKule
In AMT fluids, the Calcium and Magnesium serve as the main friction modifiers. The zinc compound is a Mult-Functional compound acting as an AW, corrosion inhibitor, and antioxidant.
Thanks ctechbob! It's pretty clear that the Honda OEM fluid is the only one that has that Magnesium additive here. Must be unique properties in it with regard to the clutch packs here.
 
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Originally Posted by AC1DD
It's pretty clear that the Honda OEM fluid is the only one that has that Magnesium additive here. Must be unique properties in it with regard to the clutch packs here.
To me, I'd love to see the discussions at Valvoline, Castrol, etc when they analyzed DW-1, see all of the zinc and magnesium and almost no phosphorus, and determine those components are arbitrary. The other components are somewhat similar in the amounts so they're not using something else as a substitute either.
 
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Originally Posted by hallstevenson
Originally Posted by AC1DD
It's pretty clear that the Honda OEM fluid is the only one that has that Magnesium additive here. Must be unique properties in it with regard to the clutch packs here.
To me, I'd love to see the discussions at Valvoline, Castrol, etc when they analyzed DW-1, see all of the zinc and magnesium and almost no phosphorus, and determine those components are arbitrary. The other components are somewhat similar in the amounts so they're not using something else as a substitute either.
So would I. Unless those companies have proprietary additives as FMs that they don't have to disclose..but if you are confident in your specific product I don't see why they wouldn't reveal the make up as long as they can patent it.
 
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