Honda J35 V6 (J35Z4) Sludge and Cam Scoring

[UncleDave]

I have no plans on following the OLM for my J35...I will look at it out of curiosity but I'll decide when a change is needed. 5K or 12 months for me, and a new filter every time.

Thats one of the cool things about car ownership, everyone gets to do what they want.

Are you going to ignore all the MM schedules then as well for VTM rear end / Trans/ diff,/ filters, and other maintenance and decide yourself?

When you say you'll decide when a change is needed then say 5K or 12 months what do you mean by that - that you may go shorter?

just curious if you are simply winging it - or you will use UOAs as a guide or what your thoughts may be on ignoring the guys that built it and rolling your own.

 

[slacktide_bitog]

Needs the muzzler

 

[tbm5690]

Thats one of the cool things about car ownership, everyone gets to do what they want.

Are you going to ignore all the MM schedules then as well for VTM rear end / Trans/ diff,/ filters, and other maintenance and decide yourself?

When you say you'll decide when a change is needed then say 5K or 12 months what do you mean by that - that you may go shorter?

just curious if you are simply winging it - or you will use UOAs as a guide or what your thoughts may be on ignoring the guys that built it and rolling your own.

I follow the book for the most part on all the other fluids (slight undercutting at times) except for the tranny...H6 is really picky with fluid so a drain and fill every 25K on that, maybe sooner if it begins to show signs of acting up. I only put about 4-5K a year on this vehicle, and in the winter temps down below -25F mean fuel dilution, which I'm not so convinced the MM takes into account. I know based on UOAs I can go longer on the oil but 90% of the time I hit 12 months before 5K on the miles, and this is mostly a short tripper so I play it safe. Not concerned about changing oil "unnecessarily" when it's only once annually and I don't mind monkeying around underneath.

 

[radiometer]

I wouldn't place much of the blame on OCI or brand, although the oil change period really goes way out there. This cam failure could not have been prevented by careful maintenance. I do practice keeping up with my cars more frequently than the manuals state but I don't think OP's car could have been saved anyway. Sometimes time and chance happens.

 

[UncleDave]

I follow the book for the most part on all the other fluids (slight undercutting at times) except for the tranny...H6 is really picky with fluid so a drain and fill every 25K on that, maybe sooner if it begins to show signs of acting up. I only put about 4-5K a year on this vehicle, and in the winter temps down below -25F mean fuel dilution, which I'm not so convinced the MM takes into account. I know based on UOAs I can go longer on the oil but 90% of the time I hit 12 months before 5K on the miles, and this is mostly a short tripper so I play it safe. Not concerned about changing oil "unnecessarily" when it's only once annually and I don't mind monkeying around underneath.

You certainly aren't going to hurt anything with that schedule.

The answer to your question is a definite yes. Hondas system is temperature based.
Notice how the penalty increases at both the hot and cold ends of the chart, contamination by combustion byproducts one the left oxidation on the right...

Here's a snippet from a superb PDF on their systemology around the OLM.

They definitely update it regularly as someone noted the total miles allowed has gone up slightly.
I know it got a bump in 2017 to a max of 10K.

 

[tbm5690]

Interesting...thanks for the post, very informative. I assume then that they also alter the MM schedule for DI engines assuming more fuel dilution than port injection.

 

[UncleDave]

Interesting...thanks for the post, very informative. I assume then that they also alter the MM schedule for DI engines assuming more fuel dilution than port injection.

Correct.

The Algo get refined/ applied with each engine suffix.

They addressed DI valve cleanliness as well by placing the injector behind the valves and using a multi pattern spray to give them a cleansing wash.

 

[350Rocket]

I follow the book for the most part on all the other fluids (slight undercutting at times) except for the tranny...H6 is really picky with fluid so a drain and fill every 25K on that, maybe sooner if it begins to show signs of acting up. I only put about 4-5K a year on this vehicle, and in the winter temps down below -25F mean fuel dilution, which I'm not so convinced the MM takes into account. I know based on UOAs I can go longer on the oil but 90% of the time I hit 12 months before 5K on the miles, and this is mostly a short tripper so I play it safe. Not concerned about changing oil "unnecessarily" when it's only once annually and I don't mind monkeying around underneath.

At least if it's an intelligent olm it should factor the short trips in assuming that they will cause fuel dilution. At least my 2005 GM does.

My opinion is doing it before the olm goes to 0 is fine but going beyond especially in conditions like you described should be avoided unless you got uoa data to be sure it's safe.

 

[mahanddeem]

Now that is too short and I'm gong to ding you on that.
Anybody hear of
"middle ground" The Three bears story was supposed to teach a bit about that

It works for me so I'm respectfully don't care what you think.
3 jugs of M1 0w40 a year + 3 Nissan filters is around $100 a YEAR (my full fuel tank is $50 every 2 to 3 weeks). It's not gonna make me any richer or poorer.

 

[350Rocket]

Now that is too short and I'm gong to ding you on that.
Anybody hear of
"middle ground" The Three bears story was supposed to teach a bit about that

My oil life monitor says 4k is almost 0% oil life remaining.
I'm sure that guy is really upset he got "dinged".

 

[WagonWheel]

So does muzzling the VCM cause the MM to “think” the oil temperature is cooler than it really is? IIRC, it keeps the ECT1 closer to 70C than 80C.

 

[UncleDave]

So does muzzling the VCM cause the MM to “think” the oil temperature is cooler than it really is? IIRC, it keeps the ECT1 closer to 70C than 80C.

I "think" it's a coolant temp mod vs oil temp. Tricking the system by reporting coolant lower than VCM activates at.

Whether it tricks the oil sensor or the coolant sensor its going to effect the OLM algorithm.

 

[earthbound]

proud to be a 3/3 guy with my honda 1.5 tgdi oil abusing mill....

 

[JHZR2]

I "think" it's a coolant temp mod vs oil temp. Tricking the system by reporting coolant lower than VCM activates at.

Whether it tricks the oil sensor or the coolant sensor its going to effect the OLM algorithm.

IIRC, the muzzler affects the sensor for the gauge, which is also the sensor for the cylinder deactivation, but not for the fuel injection control.

Our odyssey has about a 5k OCIs regardless of muzzled being installed or not. Our use is either around town very short trips, or highway use on long trips. Not much in between.

 

[JustN89]

@The Critic do you know what the back bank looks like? Unless I'm mistaken, the back bank is what's shut off during VCM activation, not the front. Something's not right here, and I don't think the oil or filter are at fault. If it was the oil, it would be much more likely that there would be damage elsewhere which, as OP noted, doesn't seem to be the case. Metallurgy is a suspect, as well as the maintenance history, but I don't think there's enough information here to identify a cause.

 

[WagonWheel]

I "think" it's a coolant temp mod vs oil temp. Tricking the system by reporting coolant lower than VCM activates at.

Whether it tricks the oil sensor or the coolant sensor its going to effect the OLM algorithm.

Yes, that’s my understanding as well from the info on the Ody boards. It’s essentially a resistor in line with the ECT1 (Engine Coolant Temp 1) sensor that makes the controller “think” the engine hasn’t warmed up to operating temperature, thus the oil isn’t warm enough to support VCM activation. The reported sensor value is high enough to not trip a low temp MIL. I wasn’t Aware of a dedicated oil temp sensor on the J35, but I’m far from an expert here. It would make more sense to use an oil temp sensor vs. the ECT for VCM activation, I would think

My thought was that if you use a muzzler, does it effect the MM oil life calculation? On my SVCM, ECT1 temps range from 160-170F at operating conditions.

 

[OM605]

I've seen many worn engines that didn't have frequent oil changes if any but i've never seen this kind of pitting on the cams where chunks of metal came off. Every time i see a camshaft looking like that on the internet it comes from an engine in north america ran on Xw20. It it possible that low HTHS/cSt oils can accentuate this kind of wear pattern when oil changes are neglected? Usually the worst parts seem to always be the bearings and the cylinder liners.

 

[UncleDave]

Yes, that’s my understanding as well from the info on the Ody boards. It’s essentially a resistor in line with the ECT1 (Engine Coolant Temp 1) sensor that makes the controller “think” the engine hasn’t warmed up to operating temperature, thus the oil isn’t warm enough to support VCM activation. The reported sensor value is high enough to not trip a low temp MIL. I wasn’t Aware of a dedicated oil temp sensor on the J35, but I’m far from an expert here. It would make more sense to use an oil temp sensor vs. the ECT for VCM activation, I would think

My thought was that if you use a muzzler, does it effect the MM oil life calculation? On my SVCM, ECT1 temps range from 160-170F at operating conditions.

I dont see how it cant - its going to report a constant short trip condition and pull your OCI back.

Love to know.

 

[The Critic]

Update: Machine shop was able to clean most of the sludge but found some scoring on the cam journals. The scoring is borderline.

They are still trying to extract the broken plug but have not been having success so far. The hole may need to be Timesert-ed, but the shop does not have timeserts for the newer Honda heads that take the M12 size plugs.

 

[UncleDave]

Update: Machine shop was able to clean most of the sludge but found some scoring on the cam journals. The scoring is borderline.

They are still trying to extract the broken plug but have not been having success so far. The hole may need to be Timesert-ed, but the shop does not have timeserts for the newer Honda heads that take the M12 size plugs.

Might be cheaper to get a new head vs line bore it and put in an oversize bearing and deal with the bad hole.