Honda J35 V6 (J35Z4) Sludge and Cam Scoring

Did Honda outsource the cams for that application, or were they made by Honda? Cam failure and galling seems to be pretty common with many car makers. Oil companies and the car makers themselves often take it on the chin, when the supplier of the cam itself is at fault. I recall a conversation with a friend who is an A-tech at a local Chrysler dealership. During an airbag recall for my Wrangler he had a Ram Hemi torn apart for a cam replacement and we were talking about it. He said they had issues with the cams and they were outsourced. He said Chrysler engineers themselves were saying that a higher ZDDP oil would be of some benefit, but ZDDP and Cats don't play well, so that info is not publicized. Flame suit on.

IIRC Amsoil doesn't recommend extended drains for that engine, and they say so because they know it is a problematic engine. So a 15K OCI should never had been done in the first place.
 
Yes, but the varnish and sludge are usually caused by pushing an OCI too far.
Agree, But my J35 is severely varnished in the front bank and spotless in the rear bank. I performed regular maintenance on the PCV.

Will be tearing into the MDX soon and that has lived on nothing but Mobil 1 0w-20 AFE and OCIs at 30 percent on the MM. I will post pictures of my findings to see if if they are identical to the Ody.
 
Agree, But my J35 is severely varnished in the front bank and spotless in the rear bank. I performed regular maintenance on the PCV.

Will be tearing into the MDX soon and that has lived on nothing but Mobil 1 0w-20 AFE and OCIs at 30 percent on the MM. I will post pictures of my findings to see if if they are identical to the Ody.
30% is approximately how many miles?
 
30% is about 7K miles into an OCI of freeway driving, but its algorithm based so it could be 4K of short tripping.

I do not know how Honda sources its parts, but partial lobe failures "seem" to be how a cam fails when it fails in a J.
Most snapshots in forums only show a lobe vs multiple failed lobes.
This would "seem" to me to be an indicator of a soft or improperly heat treated cam vs. a general lubrication failure.

The J series has been in production since 96 in Hondas and Acuras Its practically a small block chevy of 6's. (thats probably the VQ but this isnt far off)

In terms of % these seems to be fairly small leading me again to think its likely a batch problem rather than any kind of shortcoming in design.

As a guy that owns one - I sure hope so.
 
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Did Honda outsource the cams for that application, or were they made by Honda? ...He said Chrysler engineers themselves were saying that a higher ZDDP oil would be of some benefit, but ZDDP and Cats don't play well, so that info is not publicized. Flame suit on.

Honda and Dodge V8 typically use Roller followers - no sliding friction. ZDDP is irrelevant. When I was a mechanic 45+ years ago, I was replacing cams all the time on cars from the 60's and 70's with API SD/SE high zddp load in oil. Usually around 90-100K when the timing chain was toast too.
Cam hardening issues have been around forever.
 
Well, almost all Asian manufacturers dropped the hydraulic lash adjustment on their engines years ago. Most Honda’s can be adjusted as part of normal maintenance. Toyota and Hyundai use a shim and bucket setup that usually requires removable of the camshafts. I think Ford uses direct acting mechanical buckets on the 3.3 V6 which aren’t self adjusting either. I believe BMW still uses this setup in some engines too.
Funny that Subaru went to stationary fulcrum positioned HLA on their F engines.

My Old EJ253 one still have SOHC by roller-followed rockers with jam nut lash adjusters. And its a pain to do with the horizontal layout. Very Honda- esque. It's Even fitted with a subaru version of VTEC called i-AVLS
 
Respectfully, I call BS on the specific lubricant being the cause. I believe there is more than either the owner or the mechanic is stating. Why specifically point out it was Amsoil? I don’t know. You have a lot of people on this forum that hate a specific brand and without facts and evidence, I will take it with a grain of salt.
 
Respectfully, I call BS on the specific lubricant being the cause. I believe there is more than either the owner or the mechanic is stating. Why specifically point out it was Amsoil? I don’t know. You have a lot of people on this forum that hate a specific brand and without facts and evidence, I will take it with a grain of salt.
It was never my intent to direct fault at Amsoil. I think the issue here lies with the length of the drain interval.
 
30% is approximately how many miles?
Based on my experience and driving habits

On the Ody it was around 6200 to 6800 miles for 30 percent.

On the Acura 30% = 7 to 8000 miles. Way too much for my liking.

Shortest one way trip when cars are used is minimum 15 miles highway.

I definitely have noticed that it appears they changed/increased the OCI interval alogrithm with the later model J35 vehicles.
 
Honda and Dodge V8 typically use Roller followers - no sliding friction. ZDDP is irrelevant. When I was a mechanic 45+ years ago, I was replacing cams all the time on cars from the 60's and 70's with API SD/SE high zddp load in oil. Usually around 90-100K when the timing chain was toast too.
Cam hardening issues have been around forever.
I heard that too, but my research on the topic, and people I respect that know a lot more than I do agree with what my friend had mentioned. The problem is the CC and the reduction in ZDDP to protect it.
Based on my experience and driving habits

On the Ody it was around 6200 to 6800 miles for 30 percent.

On the Acura 30% = 7 to 8000 miles. Way too much for my liking.

Shortest one way trip when cars are used is minimum 15 miles highway.

I definitely have noticed that it appears they changed/increased the OCI interval alogrithm with the later model J35 vehicles.
IMO the OLM is not infallible. While it might be OK in most applications, occasionally it is screwed up, and I think that might be the case for this application. The OLM can't be blamed for a defective engine part, like a bad cam, but in some applications like this engine I would ignore it like I do with my Jeeps. One of which the OLM is screwed up badly. I've written about it so no point in hijacking this thread. I'd follow the OCI @Trav mentioned for this application, he's well versed on this engine and has cleaned up a few due to sludge and varnish problems. I recall GM reprogramming OLM's some years back because they were overly optimistic, so to think they're all perfect would be a mistake.
 
My olm in my truck is down to 0% by about 4k miles give or take. Going to 15k miles would be zeroing the olm 3-4 times. I could see sludge happening in that case no matter what oil I used.

As many have said, the camshaft issue is most likely a separate issue of quality, not necessarily the oil being shot.
 
I heard that too, but my research on the topic, and people I respect that know a lot more than I do agree with what my friend had mentioned. The problem is the CC and the reduction in ZDDP to protect it.

IMO the OLM is not infallible. While it might be OK in most applications, occasionally it is screwed up, and I think that might be the case for this application. The OLM can't be blamed for a defective engine part, like a bad cam, but in some applications like this engine I would ignore it like I do with my Jeeps. One of which the OLM is screwed up badly. I've written about it so no point in hijacking this thread. I'd follow the OCI @Trav mentioned for this application, he's well versed on this engine and has cleaned up a few due to sludge and varnish problems. I recall GM reprogramming OLM's some years back because they were overly optimistic, so to think they're all perfect would be a mistake.
ARCO's right, roller followers don't require anywhere near the ZDDP levels, as the sliding component of a flat follower is removed from the picture. And if a roller stops rolling? All the ZDDP on the planet isn't going to stop it from eating itself or the cam.
 
On the Honda OLM

On the J's I know as of 2017 they will let it go to 10K, - accord Hybrids can go to 12.

I started collecting Honda 3.5 UOA's a few yers ago from here and other honda forums and if you see me in one of these threads I ask these posters 2 questions.

1. Did you follow the Maintenance minder/ OLM?
2. Did you follow Hondas A/B filter change schedule (honda recommend an FCI every other OCI)

I have not found a single UOA that follows the MM and Honda filter schedule where the UOA returns a bad sample.

For sure Demar there is no such thing as a perfect OLM, but this has had a long time to tune and tweak this one.
 
I have no plans on following the OLM for my J35...I will look at it out of curiosity but I'll decide when a change is needed. 5K or 12 months for me, and a new filter every time.
 
ARCO's right, roller followers don't require anywhere near the ZDDP levels, as the sliding component of a flat follower is removed from the picture. And if a roller stops rolling? All the ZDDP on the planet isn't going to stop it from eating itself or the cam.
I've read that before. I was stating what I was told, and put the flame suit on for a good reason. ;) Those comments came from the Chrysler people sent to dealerships to troubleshoot issues. I was also told from a guy from a very well respected race engine building team, [I'll withhold their name out of respect], that my 88 E-150 4.9L would benefit from some additional ZDDP, contrary to what many here believe. Having said that defective parts aren't going to benefit from anything in oil or added to it. Either way ZDDP still has a role in oil.
 
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