I just changed oil on my 03 Civic at 3,300 miles. I really wasn't that dirty and wasn't as "thin" as I was expecting. I put in 5w20 Pennzoil and will change at 7,000 and maybe do an analysis on the next batch.
Honda break-in oil
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Cast iron is a different material than steel and has different wear-in properties. For one thing, steel is more ductile than iron. I think this is where the moly comes in.
When an engine breaks-in the asperities either spot weld to each other then tear away, or they flatten down by plastic deformation. Of the two processes, plastic deformation is the most desirable. When the high points are torn away they leave jagged edges and generate a wear particle that can cause more wear. When the asperities are flattened down they spread the load more evenly.
Moly is a potent, highly polar anti-wear/friction modifier that helps ensure that most of the break-in wear occurs by plastic deformation of the asperities. That's my theory anyway--and I'm sticking to it.
I kept the break-in oil in my 2002 Acura RSX for 5,000 miles and had it analyzed and I cut the filter open too. I could see no metal particles in the filter at all. So I don't understand what "problem" you're trying to solve by changing the factory-fill oil early.
All of this before I found BITOG.
NO ONE EXPLAINED ANYTHING ABOUT BREAK IN OIL TO ME AT TWO HONDA DEALERSHIPS.
Went to change oil at 500 miles at the dealership I bought the car but was talked me out it. Said you ONLY change a 5w-20 at 7,500 miles, I thought ....yeah, right, but went away. I didn't feel comfortable. The 5w-20 weight explination was bugging me too so I was VERY careful breaking in those first K's. Half of the first 2000 miles came from one easy long drive at 65-80 mph in cool rainy weather. Went to a local dealership and asked about an oil change at 2,200 and they said you don't need to until 7,500. No explination. I went away. Had to make a second 800-1000 mile round trip right away and thought I really should change the oil after that trip. Came back and just ask for an oil change. No one said a word. (3,200 miles). The factory fill hadn't lost a drop of oil and looked very clean. They put in Castrol GTX 5w-20 at 3,200 and again at 6,800 miles. (Glad it has some Moly in it.) Never needed one drop of top off ever.
Was "overfilled" at 6,800 about 3/32" at the dealership. Today at 8,300 that oil is still exactly at the same 3/32" over-fill spot and looks absolutely new. Will do my own oil changes from now on and my first UOA at about 9,000.
NO ONE EXPLAINED ANYTHING ABOUT BREAK IN OIL TO ME AT TWO HONDA DEALERSHIPS.
Went to change oil at 500 miles at the dealership I bought the car but was talked me out it. Said you ONLY change a 5w-20 at 7,500 miles, I thought ....yeah, right, but went away. I didn't feel comfortable. The 5w-20 weight explination was bugging me too so I was VERY careful breaking in those first K's. Half of the first 2000 miles came from one easy long drive at 65-80 mph in cool rainy weather. Went to a local dealership and asked about an oil change at 2,200 and they said you don't need to until 7,500. No explination. I went away. Had to make a second 800-1000 mile round trip right away and thought I really should change the oil after that trip. Came back and just ask for an oil change. No one said a word. (3,200 miles). The factory fill hadn't lost a drop of oil and looked very clean. They put in Castrol GTX 5w-20 at 3,200 and again at 6,800 miles. (Glad it has some Moly in it.) Never needed one drop of top off ever.
Was "overfilled" at 6,800 about 3/32" at the dealership. Today at 8,300 that oil is still exactly at the same 3/32" over-fill spot and looks absolutely new. Will do my own oil changes from now on and my first UOA at about 9,000.
All I know is when I changed the factory oil in my 04 Accord (3900 mi) it came out looking very
GREEN. Don't know what's up with that.
Assembly lube or just special high moly oil?
Lukey
GREEN. Don't know what's up with that.
Assembly lube or just special high moly oil?
Lukey
buster,
Didn't you post a link recently about the preferred weight for Honda cars in Japan is a 40wt oil?? I wonder if there's any controversy on that side of the ocean about the break-in oil....
Didn't you post a link recently about the preferred weight for Honda cars in Japan is a 40wt oil?? I wonder if there's any controversy on that side of the ocean about the break-in oil....
My 2000 Subaru had the oil change recomendation to Change the oil/filter at 3,000 miles and NOT before 1,000 miles. Oil analysis suggests that parts are coated/plated with an antiwear compound or oil additive. I feel that the enginers who distroy engines testing them know better than the guesses we may have. It's fun to think about all this stuff but, in the end I rely on the engineers who designed and built my vehicle. My first oil change was preformed at ~ 2,200 miles and again at 5,000 miles to Mobil 1. I now have 81,000 miles on it the UOA looks excellent for a 5,000 mile oil/filter change and I use only a couple of ozs of oil during a 5,000 miles oil change. ed
Which Honda engines still use iron sleeves?
According to these links
http://www.saffil.com/metal.htm
http://www.saffil.com/pdfs/automotive/data/mmcprop.pdf
http://www.preludepower.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=37813
Honda uses a "Metal Matrix" carbon-fiber reinforced cylinder liner in a lot (most?) of their engines since 1990.
To quote from the article:
[ January 13, 2005, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: kreigle ]
Kreigle, I'm not sure if your question was directed to me because I never said, nor implied, that Honda uses cast iron cylinder sleeves--just the opposite, I said they use steel sleeves in their K20A2, K20A3, and many of their 4 cylinder engines. The S2000 does use the metal matrix block, so do many of their motorcycle engines.
Thanks for the link to saffil.
Thanks for the link to saffil.
on my '03 civic i drained the factory fill at 2500mi, castrol gtx was used till 5k, and synthetic from there on out. the vehicle now has 40k.. and runs strong as new. car consumes no oil.. dipstick is maybe a couple mm's lower after 7500mi oci.
if your stock si dynoed 170whp theres something wrong with the shops dyno. i owned an si as well, '00 insted of '99 though. those cars put down 140hp to the wheels and 160 at the flywheel.. if its 170hp at the flywheel.. thats more believable
Just to be the distrusting consumer... Cars like Hondas and Toyotas will run for well over 200,000 miles with correct maintenance, including break-in period. Now, remember that an overwhelming majority of automotive owners do not keep a new vehicle for more then 100,000 miles. What does this mean to the automotive manufacturers, well why should they care about miles after 100,000? As long as the car runs without problems for this time the customer is likely to be a repeat customer, still living in the mindset that 100,000 miles trouble free is a good car. I can tell you that an improperly broken in engine will last past 100,000 miles, see it every day. The fact remains that an automobile company will not want there car to last 300,000 miles because they are loosing money. What interest would they have in keeping you from their showrooms? Is anyone saying a high Moley count is bad in break-in oil, no, but wear particles are. Some say, "just change the filter then," but you forget that filters only get larger pieces (larger being relative). The very small pieces that do get through are also able to get between parts (ex. main bearings and the crank), allowing aluminum and other particles in.
This is just something to think about in my distrusting mind. I could go on like this forever but had to make myself stop.
This is just something to think about in my distrusting mind. I could go on like this forever but had to make myself stop.
buster, I think that chunk of text you found has some myths imbedded in it. I believe the fiber-reinforced blocks go back to 1990 (as kreigle indicates) ... and I believe the Honda break-in oil started around 2001 with their adoption of 5W-20 oils.
Coincidence? Maybe, but I doubt it.
Most Honda people agree that VTEC motors consume more oil when you are in that high-RPM, transitional range between “normal” operation and the point where VTEC cam lobes kick in.
I had read that VTEC used oil pressure in the cam-lobe switchover. I was pretty sure I knew how it worked once ... but have forgotten too much of that now to try and explain it.
As for molybdenum filling in tiny scratches, I’m not sure I believe that either. Molybdenum bonds to metal as spots heat up to about 500F ... so that bonding is unlikely to happen in a scratch where no contact is currently making the surfaces of the cavity hot. I do not know what the active ingredient in “Restore” is ... CSL? Is that chromium based? I am not sure but I am confident moly won’t work like this.
It sounds to me like the author of that text knows something about cars and automotive technology ... but is extrapolating beyond his abilities. Um, this is something I’ve been guilty of doing in the past.
If I were buying a new Honda today, I’d keep the factory fill in the crankcase for the first 2,000-3,000 miles then switch to another oil I knew had a lot of moly ... not so hard to find anymore. Again, I don’t think there’s anything to the word “synthetic” and break-in. I do feel you’re better off changing the oil more frequently in the first 10,000 miles and if that’s what you’re doing, you’re not getting the benefits of using a synthetic. So, there’s no point to using one.
Cicero, dealerships, in general, are a poor source of useful information.
Lukey: “All I know is when I changed the factory oil in my 04 Accord (3900 mi) it came out looking very GREEN. Don't know what's up with that. Assembly lube or just special high moly oil?"
It could be a dye, it could be a high-moly assembly lube (an assembly lube may also have copper in it) or it could be copper from one of those two source. We often see a lot of copper in new Honda UOAs.
--- Bror Jace
Coincidence? Maybe, but I doubt it.
Most Honda people agree that VTEC motors consume more oil when you are in that high-RPM, transitional range between “normal” operation and the point where VTEC cam lobes kick in.
I had read that VTEC used oil pressure in the cam-lobe switchover. I was pretty sure I knew how it worked once ... but have forgotten too much of that now to try and explain it.
As for molybdenum filling in tiny scratches, I’m not sure I believe that either. Molybdenum bonds to metal as spots heat up to about 500F ... so that bonding is unlikely to happen in a scratch where no contact is currently making the surfaces of the cavity hot. I do not know what the active ingredient in “Restore” is ... CSL? Is that chromium based? I am not sure but I am confident moly won’t work like this.
It sounds to me like the author of that text knows something about cars and automotive technology ... but is extrapolating beyond his abilities. Um, this is something I’ve been guilty of doing in the past.
If I were buying a new Honda today, I’d keep the factory fill in the crankcase for the first 2,000-3,000 miles then switch to another oil I knew had a lot of moly ... not so hard to find anymore. Again, I don’t think there’s anything to the word “synthetic” and break-in. I do feel you’re better off changing the oil more frequently in the first 10,000 miles and if that’s what you’re doing, you’re not getting the benefits of using a synthetic. So, there’s no point to using one.
Cicero, dealerships, in general, are a poor source of useful information.
Lukey: “All I know is when I changed the factory oil in my 04 Accord (3900 mi) it came out looking very GREEN. Don't know what's up with that. Assembly lube or just special high moly oil?"
It could be a dye, it could be a high-moly assembly lube (an assembly lube may also have copper in it) or it could be copper from one of those two source. We often see a lot of copper in new Honda UOAs.
--- Bror Jace
How many cars are still made in Japan.quote:
Originally posted by Ken2:
You should see how the longshoremen drive the cars when they're loading the car carrier shipsEspecially in Japan they're often young and drive like they're in the Harbor Grand Prix!
Ken
Originally posted by GSV:
PS - I once worked at a car rental agency and the employees absolutely positively HAMMER the cars. Handbrake turns, J-hooks, four wheel power slides through grass and mud, full throttle acceleration in cars with 10 miles on the odometer...
I'm a much mellower driver after scaring myself silly 700 times working at that place.
Another reason to NEVER buy a used car from a Rental Agency!!!
I got an idea! Don't know if some one has said it already cause I didn't read each and every post in this whole thread.
Read the owners manual, what does it say. Do what the owners manual says. If it says 3750 than 3750 is what it should be. If it says 5000 do it that way.
Read the owners manual, what does it say. Do what the owners manual says. If it says 3750 than 3750 is what it should be. If it says 5000 do it that way.
I would never buy a Rental Car, either. In my younger years I abused every rental car I rented. Blown tires, e brakes broken, but mostly driven like it was stolen. I remember one particular GM model we blew the airbags out and the entire front window. (During an offroad excursion) ALWAYS get the rental insurance!
My 2001 Accord EX V6 had the first oil change at 7500 miles (as recommended for normal driving) by my Honda dealer. It now has 43981 miles and uses no oil.
I know this is going to sound "smart alec," but here goes anyway: report back in another 100k miles, and then I'll be impressed.
And hey,
My Honda Ridgeline truck has the VTEC V6 engine and the manual says to change oil (including factory fill) only when the oil life monitor tells you service is required, or after a year, which ever comes first.
It starts to give you a service due notice at 15% oil life expectancy. At 0% it shows "service past due". The initial service light comes on between 5,000 and 7,000 miles for most owners at the Ridgeline Owners forum. Since there is a little fail safe built in, I'm sure you could go past 7,000.
If you use synthetic 5w20 you could probably go much longer but of course the monitor does not know that and basis its calculations on dino. With synthetic oil you could probably reset the first service due notice and change on the second notice. Going by the monitor for OCIs seems to me to be a good idea in normal driving conditions. BTW, Havoline 5w20 has received some very good UOAs of late and it is loaded with moly. In fact, I believe the only 5w20 oil to contain more moly is the Redline synthetic.
It starts to give you a service due notice at 15% oil life expectancy. At 0% it shows "service past due". The initial service light comes on between 5,000 and 7,000 miles for most owners at the Ridgeline Owners forum. Since there is a little fail safe built in, I'm sure you could go past 7,000.
If you use synthetic 5w20 you could probably go much longer but of course the monitor does not know that and basis its calculations on dino. With synthetic oil you could probably reset the first service due notice and change on the second notice. Going by the monitor for OCIs seems to me to be a good idea in normal driving conditions. BTW, Havoline 5w20 has received some very good UOAs of late and it is loaded with moly. In fact, I believe the only 5w20 oil to contain more moly is the Redline synthetic.
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