I wonder who put out that bulletin? I don't think it was Pennzoil or Motorcraft. Probably not Ford or Honda. Maybe Autozone is testing oils and engines but I doubt it. I am pretty sure I will try 5w-20 and keep Honda happy.
Honda break-in oil
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I agree with you on the 5W-20 issue. Use what the manufacturer said to use, period. I used Pennz. 5W-20 then one day when I wasn't paying attention, the quickie lube put Quaker State 5W-20 in it and have been using it since because of the Warranty from Quaker State, which I thought was pretty cool (look at my post on that here, gotten some pretty good replys). Been on QS for the last two oil changes and going to have it analyzed pretty soon. I will post the results when I get them because I'll need some insight as to what these numbers mean AND no one ever talks about QS. Dad has used it for years when I was a kid and he never had any problems.
Perhaps honda just uses a lot of assembly lube when they build the engines. That could account for the high counts of moly in the factory oil.
Yeah, I just got into this thread and I wondered the same thing when I read Dani's post, too. Hindsight being 20/20, it would've been interesting to see and hear the Autozone store manager's reaction if Dani had asked to see the "bulletin". I wouldn't be surprised that Autozone doesn't want to stock the oil and the "bulletin" is just an Autozone corporate memo kicked throughout the chain to BS customers who ask. Extremely little to absolutely no liklihood of trouble substituting 5W-30, but I wonder what Autozone's policy would be if an engine warranty claim was denied by a manufacturer zone rep who decided the failure was due to use of improper oil. Anyone think Autozone would pay for the rebuild due to their "advice"? Really?
Patman
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Why wouldn't they just round it off to 4000? What a pain that would be to try and figure out 3750 mile intervals.
3750 actually makes sense since it is the severe oil/filter change schedule and 7.5k miles is for all other services(at least for the MDX).
Here's a quote from ahm-ownerlink.com about initial oil fill and recomended change interval and severe operating conditions.
**Why should I wait to change the oil the first time?
Your Acura engine was delivered with an oil that is specially formulated for new engines that have not yet developed their "natural" wear patterns and may contain minute particles from the manufacturing process.
American Honda strongly recommends this special oil be left in the engine long enough for these wear patterns to develop, usually until the first maintenance interval specified in your Owner's Manual, based on your specific driving conditions.**
**Follow the "severe" schedule only if you drive in one or more of these conditions most of the time:
Trips of less than 5 miles (less than 10 in freezing weather)
Extremely hot weather (over 90 degrees F)
Extensive idling or stop-and-go driving
Trailer towing, driving with a car-top carrier, or driving in the mountains
Muddy, dusty, or de-iced roads
**
I guess 3750 is reasonable enough for the first oil/filter change based on the above recomendations. I mean who does not have less than 5 mile trips and stop and go driving.
Here's a quote from ahm-ownerlink.com about initial oil fill and recomended change interval and severe operating conditions.
**Why should I wait to change the oil the first time?
Your Acura engine was delivered with an oil that is specially formulated for new engines that have not yet developed their "natural" wear patterns and may contain minute particles from the manufacturing process.
American Honda strongly recommends this special oil be left in the engine long enough for these wear patterns to develop, usually until the first maintenance interval specified in your Owner's Manual, based on your specific driving conditions.**
**Follow the "severe" schedule only if you drive in one or more of these conditions most of the time:
Trips of less than 5 miles (less than 10 in freezing weather)
Extremely hot weather (over 90 degrees F)
Extensive idling or stop-and-go driving
Trailer towing, driving with a car-top carrier, or driving in the mountains
Muddy, dusty, or de-iced roads
**
I guess 3750 is reasonable enough for the first oil/filter change based on the above recomendations. I mean who does not have less than 5 mile trips and stop and go driving.
re: "**Follow the "severe" schedule only if you drive in one or more of these conditions MOST of the time...
I guess 3750 is reasonable enough for the first oil/filter change based on the above recomendations. I mean who does not have less than 5 mile trips and stop and go driving?"
Did you notice the words "Most of the time" and "Normal schedule"? I believe this means that if most (but not ALL) of your trips meet the normal schedule, then you should follow the normal schedule. The word "normal" imples (to me) that most drivers should follow the normal schedule. Otherwise, they would call the severe schedule normal and the normal one as light duty driving or something similar.
I guess 3750 is reasonable enough for the first oil/filter change based on the above recomendations. I mean who does not have less than 5 mile trips and stop and go driving?"
Did you notice the words "Most of the time" and "Normal schedule"? I believe this means that if most (but not ALL) of your trips meet the normal schedule, then you should follow the normal schedule. The word "normal" imples (to me) that most drivers should follow the normal schedule. Otherwise, they would call the severe schedule normal and the normal one as light duty driving or something similar.
My wife and I just attended an Acura new owner's info party. Included with the freebie Acura hat,mug, cleaning kit and free oil change coupon, is a maintenance booklet that *recomends* 3750 oil/filter changes.
There was also a visit to the service bay where a technician *tried* to explain various parts/function/features of an MDX. The tech is not aware of special break-in oil and the prefered oil/filter change is the above mentioned miles. The bulk oil used is Penz. The tech never heard of Mobil1 0w-20 which also thinks it is not recomended because it is thicker than 5w-20. He believes that the rear diff requires an specialized lube that can only be purchased thru Acura/Honda (tho the owners manual states 80w90 gear oil).
I guess for me, I'll go with the 1st free service at 3750 but insist on the bottled 5w20 Honda oil.
There was also a visit to the service bay where a technician *tried* to explain various parts/function/features of an MDX. The tech is not aware of special break-in oil and the prefered oil/filter change is the above mentioned miles. The bulk oil used is Penz. The tech never heard of Mobil1 0w-20 which also thinks it is not recomended because it is thicker than 5w-20. He believes that the rear diff requires an specialized lube that can only be purchased thru Acura/Honda (tho the owners manual states 80w90 gear oil).
I guess for me, I'll go with the 1st free service at 3750 but insist on the bottled 5w20 Honda oil.
My wife's MDX is driven about 6 miles to work weekdays with short trips to stores, kids activities around town tho it gets highway miles on the weekends. It has also experienced NYC and vicinity traffic for several hours 2 weeks after taking delivery.So, in this case, I would classify this as severe.
I have 2700 miles on my 2003 Civic EX and want to change my oil! My other new vehicles I always changed around 1,000 miles and they never burned oil. The Honda hasn't used any noticable amount so would I do any harm by changing around 3,000? I want to use Pennzoil 5w-20 for 4,000 miles and then switch to Mobil 1 (Haven't decided 0w-20 or 5w-30)
I wonder if Honda America had any idea of the angst they'd cause members of this site when they made that recomendation not to change the initial fill for 5,000 miles*... Didn't they realize that bobistheoilguy.com is also the international synonym for paranoids and obsessive-compulsives? slick, if you want to change your oil, DO so. You're not going to harm your car's engine as long as you refill with an SL/GF-3 quality dino or synthetic in anything reasonably close to the factory recommended viscosity range.
*Weird in one sense. I don't know what the wording in the 2003 owner's manual is about break-in driving, but in the manual for my previous '96 Accord, it advised to take it easy for the first 600 miles (avoid speeds faster than 60 mph, vary the vehicle speed, no jack-rabbit starts, and keep the revs below 4000 rpm, yada-yada-yada.) This light break-in procedure suggests to me that Honda feels the ring seating and bearing wear patterns should be pretty well set by 600 miles. When I rolled 600 miles around on my '96 Accord, I changed the oil and filter. Miraculously, the motor didn't fall out of the engine bay, and it always sailed through California's stringent emissions testing.
*Weird in one sense. I don't know what the wording in the 2003 owner's manual is about break-in driving, but in the manual for my previous '96 Accord, it advised to take it easy for the first 600 miles (avoid speeds faster than 60 mph, vary the vehicle speed, no jack-rabbit starts, and keep the revs below 4000 rpm, yada-yada-yada.) This light break-in procedure suggests to me that Honda feels the ring seating and bearing wear patterns should be pretty well set by 600 miles. When I rolled 600 miles around on my '96 Accord, I changed the oil and filter. Miraculously, the motor didn't fall out of the engine bay, and it always sailed through California's stringent emissions testing.
I'm trying to see Honda's logic on this point but I have to confess that I cannot. The quantity of manufacturing debris and break-in crud circulating in the oil at least should merit a filter change (or two).
I have always believed in changing the oil often during the break-in process to remove this stuff. Wear will still occur with good clean dino. The break-in period is initial, controlled, wearing-in of the engines moving parts and their mating surfaces. I do not see how metal flakes, granules and other abrasives help in any way.
If you want to follow Honda's advice at least look into swapping out the filter. If 750 miles of Auto-RX calls for a filter change, breaking in a brand new motor certainly does as well.
Good luck with your car!
PS - I once worked at a car rental agency and the employees absolutely positively HAMMER the cars. Handbrake turns, J-hooks, four wheel power slides through grass and mud, full throttle acceleration in cars with 10 miles on the odometer...
I'm a much mellower driver after scaring myself silly 700 times working at that place.
PSS - I won't name the company but it is synonomous with frugal.
[ June 09, 2003, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: GSV ]
I have always believed in changing the oil often during the break-in process to remove this stuff. Wear will still occur with good clean dino. The break-in period is initial, controlled, wearing-in of the engines moving parts and their mating surfaces. I do not see how metal flakes, granules and other abrasives help in any way.
If you want to follow Honda's advice at least look into swapping out the filter. If 750 miles of Auto-RX calls for a filter change, breaking in a brand new motor certainly does as well.
Good luck with your car!
PS - I once worked at a car rental agency and the employees absolutely positively HAMMER the cars. Handbrake turns, J-hooks, four wheel power slides through grass and mud, full throttle acceleration in cars with 10 miles on the odometer...
I'm a much mellower driver after scaring myself silly 700 times working at that place.
PSS - I won't name the company but it is synonomous with frugal.
[ June 09, 2003, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: GSV ]
Did your other vehicles have steel cylinder liners? Honda has good reasons for wanting you to keep the factory-fill oil in till the 1st scheduled interval. If you insist on changing it early then use an oil that has 1000ppm moly in it.
[ June 09, 2003, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: Jay ]
I used to own a 99' Honda Civic Si(R) that had the B16A2 DOHC VTEC engine and (it produced 160hp but it was really 170hp i dynoed it)i too changed the oil at like 600miles and found out i couldnt budge the filter (after id already drained the oil).
so, i left the stock japanese filter on and re-filled w/ M1 5w-30 and at 1000miles gota local shop to strong armt he filter off. (The guy actually HUNG from it using an oil flter wrench!! it took 2 guys to turn itloose!!
)
I never had an engine problem per se. But i cant ell you this. The engine had a redline of 8K rpms and fuel cutoff at 8100rpms w/ VTEC not activating until 5500rpms (pulled hard till redline) and VTEC IS AN OIL DEPENDENT SYSTEM!! IT IS sensitive to dirty oil or thick oil. I used (stupidly)M1 15w-50 in it and dynoed it and lost 13hp!!
My point is this i guess. This was the only engine ive ever known of that really wants a thin oil and one that helps the rings to seal VERY well. Otherwise, you will get sever blow-by at high rpms and high oil consumption. i attribute this to the fact i changed the oil at 600 miles rather than 3K miles adn this caused the rings to not seal well and i had a consumption rate of about 1.5 quarts -/+ a few tenths every 3K miles.
This engine was the BEST engine ive ever been behind as far as power band and smoothness. But with any car that revs to 8K rpms its gonna have hihger oil consupmtion than a normal person would think it should have. bottom line is: change at 600 miles if you want, but use a dino oil to refill w/ until 3K miles. IF your Honda is a non-VTEC or a SOHC VTEC that doesnt rev past 7K rpms disregard this as ive only seen this problem with high revving B-series engines and other DOHC VTEC engines like the H22A.
Oh and i forgot one thing: the B16A2 engine had molybendenum coated piston skirts.
[ June 10, 2003, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: Chris Jefferson ]
so, i left the stock japanese filter on and re-filled w/ M1 5w-30 and at 1000miles gota local shop to strong armt he filter off. (The guy actually HUNG from it using an oil flter wrench!! it took 2 guys to turn itloose!!
I never had an engine problem per se. But i cant ell you this. The engine had a redline of 8K rpms and fuel cutoff at 8100rpms w/ VTEC not activating until 5500rpms (pulled hard till redline) and VTEC IS AN OIL DEPENDENT SYSTEM!! IT IS sensitive to dirty oil or thick oil. I used (stupidly)M1 15w-50 in it and dynoed it and lost 13hp!!
My point is this i guess. This was the only engine ive ever known of that really wants a thin oil and one that helps the rings to seal VERY well. Otherwise, you will get sever blow-by at high rpms and high oil consumption. i attribute this to the fact i changed the oil at 600 miles rather than 3K miles adn this caused the rings to not seal well and i had a consumption rate of about 1.5 quarts -/+ a few tenths every 3K miles.
This engine was the BEST engine ive ever been behind as far as power band and smoothness. But with any car that revs to 8K rpms its gonna have hihger oil consupmtion than a normal person would think it should have. bottom line is: change at 600 miles if you want, but use a dino oil to refill w/ until 3K miles. IF your Honda is a non-VTEC or a SOHC VTEC that doesnt rev past 7K rpms disregard this as ive only seen this problem with high revving B-series engines and other DOHC VTEC engines like the H22A.
Oh and i forgot one thing: the B16A2 engine had molybendenum coated piston skirts.
[ June 10, 2003, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: Chris Jefferson ]
Chris, were you running 15W-50 when the 13 hp loss occurred? If so, I speculate that had more to do with the power loss than changing out the factory-fill oil at 600 miles. If I read your post correctly, your initial dyno results demonstrated 10 more hp than Honda spec'd before you changed the factory-fill oil out? If that's so, those results were obtained before the rings had seated and maximum seal had been achieved with the probable 5W-30 oil from the factory. It seems to me the post-seating power loss would be more attributable to parasitic losses from the higher viscosity 15W-50 oil. (which, if anything, would also result in better ring-to-wall sealing than a lower viscosity range oil would)
[ June 10, 2003, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Ray H ]
[ June 10, 2003, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Ray H ]
Jay, they were Chevrolet's which are cast iron blocks. So the pistons are riding in the same type of bore.
Sorry, i didnt mean to cause speculation that the oil change before 600 miles caused the hp loss-tha was due to the 15w-50 M1. I just thought id add that as a background tot hose here that might be thinking of using such a high viscosity oil in a high-revving Honda engine.
in the end, changing the oil at 600miles really did no harm at all excpet for maybe not letting the piston rings "seat" as well, but who knows?
in the end, changing the oil at 600miles really did no harm at all excpet for maybe not letting the piston rings "seat" as well, but who knows?
My wife has a 2001 Accord V6. I too was shocked at the break in oil change interval, but found out from a Honda forum what has been said here, that Honda adds a lot of moly to the break in oil and it really helps initial wear. Unable to wait 6,000 miles, I found that Mr. Moly makes a break in version of their moly additive that does not bond to the metal, it just stays in suspension so initial wear can proceed. I got a bottle and changed the oil at 3,000 using Honda oil. Then brought it to the dealer at 6,000 for its first official oil change for warranty purposes. Am now running Schaeffers Supreme 7000 5w30.
Clutchless have you ever run an oil analysis of the Schaeffers Supreme 7000 5W-30? I have been using the Supreme 7000 10W-30 in my wife's 2002 CRV but have not run an analysis yet. I have been considering buying the 5W-30 the next time around.
I changed at 4,250 on my new AV6 Coupe. After a 2,200 mile road trip the oil was downright black. Made me very nervous to keep it in longer. Now I can sleep better.
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