Honda ATF DW-1 vs Castrol Transmax import
- Thread starter xgmad
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Castrol has a full synthetic that would be better for your Honda than the Import formula.
Maxlife is another good choice
Maxlife is another good choice
There's also the Idemitsu, Aisin, MaxLife, and a few others that lots of us use with good results in place of DW1.
Me, I use the Idemitsu since I can order the 5Qt bottles from Amazon for a decent price.
Me, I use the Idemitsu since I can order the 5Qt bottles from Amazon for a decent price.
How much does it cost you per quart/liter ?
Around here, Idemitsu is $8.99/quart, Valvoline Maxlife is half that, and Castrol's full synthetic ATF is about $8/quart. I get Honda DW-1 for $8.50/quart.
I use Mag1 Full Synthetic Multi Vehicle ATF in my 2012 CRV.
MOBIL1 Fully Synthetic ATF and/or Castrol Transmax Multi Vehicle ATF inmy 1998 CRV.
No problems in the many years I've been doing this.
MOBIL1 Fully Synthetic ATF and/or Castrol Transmax Multi Vehicle ATF inmy 1998 CRV.
No problems in the many years I've been doing this.
I have used Castrol TransMax Import Multi Vehicle(IMV) in a Lexus, Nissan & Mazda vehicles of this century, all with good success.
And yes, there is a Castrol ATF synthetic as slacktide_bitog mentioned and is most likely the same price as the IMV.
And yes, there is a Castrol ATF synthetic as slacktide_bitog mentioned and is most likely the same price as the IMV.
I also use the Idemitsu Honda equivalent from Amazon.
I have used MaxLife and Castrol in the past.
I have even used genuine Honda ATF as well.
I have used MaxLife and Castrol in the past.
I have even used genuine Honda ATF as well.
I have used Pennzoil Platinum LV and Amalie Universal synthetic in my Odyssey, and both work well with Honda. Others have used Castrol and Maxlife with good success. I would have no qualms about using any major brand ATF that is advertised as compatible with DW1.
it was proven that the idemitsu add pack was worlds apart from genuine DW1. as unconventional as most honda automatics are, they’re pretty indifferent to fluid...
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/three-atfs-analyzed.312875/
Again people keep recommending random LV fluids, just because they "feel" it will work. Especially the Maxlife one that has a cult following here.
The DW1 has completely different chemistry (especially the Zinc, Magnesium levels) and has higher viscosity too than the average LV ATF.
The DW1 has completely different chemistry (especially the Zinc, Magnesium levels) and has higher viscosity too than the average LV ATF.
In all my Honda's over the years I use only Honda fluids except brake fluid. Honda ATF the other day for my Element was $9 and change/qt. not overly expensive. They are picky about the fluids in them but run a long time on OEM. Used Maxlife ATF in my GM's, old Volvo's and Mercedes with great success but just not for a Honda.
Yes and how does that affect the longevity or operation of the transmission? It's different but what does that difference cause?
In the absence of formalized testing, that cannot be answered.
I use DW-1, by choice. It's not that much more expensive in the grand scheme (3 quarts - $24) even if you do a drain and fill yearly. One reason I lean towards it otherwise is why did Honda spec the 2 or 3 components that they did and at the amounts they did. They had to have a reason. Now that's not to say there aren't some really smart folks at Valvoline, Castrol, etc who are 100% convinced "we don't need those". Are they right ? Or wrong ?
Of course they did. Their transmissions are weak, so they need all the help they can get.
They trade in Phosphorus for Zinc, might know something that we don't know about their internal parts. Zinc is also known to offer extreme pressure protection, and to protect components made from ferrous materials from corrosion. Is an anti-wear element but some manufactures don't like it (Hitachi is one OEM that requires zinc-free oils in many types of equipment)
OK, maybe not as weak as Nissan's CVTs but still...
One can get lucky with other oils, based on their ambient temperature being more forgiving (above Mason-Dixon Line), the land is flatter, the traffic is less stop-and-go...
But IMO that's just luck.
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So aren't people taking a chance (presuming this ^^ is accurate) by using aftermarket ATFs ? It would be wise for Castrol, Valvoline, etc to simply avoid recommending their fluids for DW-1 applications, wouldn't it ?
The table of analisys is here: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/honda-multi-vehicle-atf-comparison-chart.321807/
I don't know for sure, obviously. But if something goes wrong, how you going to prove that was the oil formulation and not something else?
Maybe is not that big of a deal, especially for other brands with closer formulations. I don't own a Honda and I'll never will probably, just because of little weird things like this.
I have owned or still own Ford, Hyundai, Kia, Toyota, so I am pretty open to brands. Do most of my own repairs and maintenance. Sometimes for friends too.
I don't know for sure, obviously. But if something goes wrong, how you going to prove that was the oil formulation and not something else?
Maybe is not that big of a deal, especially for other brands with closer formulations. I don't own a Honda and I'll never will probably, just because of little weird things like this.
I have owned or still own Ford, Hyundai, Kia, Toyota, so I am pretty open to brands. Do most of my own repairs and maintenance. Sometimes for friends too.
Well, first off. Not all of them are weak. From 2006 on the 5 speed is just as reliable as most other transmissions.
Secondly, all the talk of chemistry.
A little history.
In the early 2000's Honda was in the process of morphing from a 'little econobox' company to something slightly more upscale. In this process they decided to design their own transmission, coming up with something akin to an automated manual box with clutch packs doing the work of shift forks. The downside to that is that during some shifts the transmission is simultaneously coming on and going off clutches on the same shaft. Get the timing wrong, or have too 'grabby' of a fluid in there and you end up with a jerky shift. Jerky shifts do not go well for customers wanting a more 'luxury' car.
So, in the early 2000's Z1 was formulated with an additive package allowing the clutches some slippage and smoothing out the shifts.
This is supported by language in the 2000 and 2003 owners manual that you can use Dex III, but be prepared for harsh shifting. Not damage, just uncomfortable shifts. (Prior to the 2000's Z1 wasn't a thing, although it was back-specced for some of the older transmissions)
DW1 came about with roughly the same additive package with supposed improved base oils as Z1 was apparently degrading rather quickly.
None of the aftermarket 'replacement' fluids come near the chemistry of DW1. So if you're looking for that, stick with DW1. If you're inside of warranty and doing your own maintenance, might want to stick with DW1, or keep excellent records.
My thinking is that you don't need the exact additive package to do the same function as DW1. You would think that Idemitsu, who probably knows exactly how the sauce is made would use it if they needed to in order to offer a 'suitable for' DW1 mix. The number of people using alternative fluids and not appearing to have problems, myself included, point to that particular additive package not being strictly necessary. My #2 Accord transmission has made it further on Idemitsu than the #1 one did. Is that proof? Not with a sample size of 1 it isn't, but it is the data I have.
There's nothing terribly special in a Honda transmission other than no brakes or bands (All clutch packs). They don't use special bearings, bushings, or metals, so any standard anti-wear chemistry should work just fine. They can probably be sensitive to viscosity due to the shift timing issue. According to Raybestos, they do have to use a special friction material in their Honda kits, likely to deal with the slippage necessary during shifting.
More debate here:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/three-atfs-analyzed.312875/
Some of the opinions above are my own, but I've been following the Z1/DW1 discussion from way back, and I feel as though there are some logical conclusions that can be drawn from all of the debate.
Secondly, all the talk of chemistry.
A little history.
In the early 2000's Honda was in the process of morphing from a 'little econobox' company to something slightly more upscale. In this process they decided to design their own transmission, coming up with something akin to an automated manual box with clutch packs doing the work of shift forks. The downside to that is that during some shifts the transmission is simultaneously coming on and going off clutches on the same shaft. Get the timing wrong, or have too 'grabby' of a fluid in there and you end up with a jerky shift. Jerky shifts do not go well for customers wanting a more 'luxury' car.
So, in the early 2000's Z1 was formulated with an additive package allowing the clutches some slippage and smoothing out the shifts.
This is supported by language in the 2000 and 2003 owners manual that you can use Dex III, but be prepared for harsh shifting. Not damage, just uncomfortable shifts. (Prior to the 2000's Z1 wasn't a thing, although it was back-specced for some of the older transmissions)
DW1 came about with roughly the same additive package with supposed improved base oils as Z1 was apparently degrading rather quickly.
None of the aftermarket 'replacement' fluids come near the chemistry of DW1. So if you're looking for that, stick with DW1. If you're inside of warranty and doing your own maintenance, might want to stick with DW1, or keep excellent records.
My thinking is that you don't need the exact additive package to do the same function as DW1. You would think that Idemitsu, who probably knows exactly how the sauce is made would use it if they needed to in order to offer a 'suitable for' DW1 mix. The number of people using alternative fluids and not appearing to have problems, myself included, point to that particular additive package not being strictly necessary. My #2 Accord transmission has made it further on Idemitsu than the #1 one did. Is that proof? Not with a sample size of 1 it isn't, but it is the data I have.
There's nothing terribly special in a Honda transmission other than no brakes or bands (All clutch packs). They don't use special bearings, bushings, or metals, so any standard anti-wear chemistry should work just fine. They can probably be sensitive to viscosity due to the shift timing issue. According to Raybestos, they do have to use a special friction material in their Honda kits, likely to deal with the slippage necessary during shifting.
More debate here:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/three-atfs-analyzed.312875/
Some of the opinions above are my own, but I've been following the Z1/DW1 discussion from way back, and I feel as though there are some logical conclusions that can be drawn from all of the debate.
No way to know whether a failure would be caused by the oil formulation or something else. Any non-OEM fluid is a crapshoot, but I believe the major companies would have a lot to lose if their recommended fluids routinely caused transmission failures.
I switched from DW1 to Pennzoil LV about 6 years ago because the DW1 seemed to break down (i.e. sloppy shifts) after long towing trips (2500 lb trailer). The Pennzoil LV seemed to hold up better and I have therefore stuck with full synthetics ever since, changing the fluid every 15-20k miles. Currently using Amalie universal and it shifts perfect at 120k miles. I am therefore convinced that Honda fluids are not necessarily the best choice, especially for severe service applications. Of course, my opinion will change if my transmission grenades at some point!
Honda has been making their own automatic transmissions since the 1970s. The reason they use the design they use is because of patent issues with planetary geared transmissions. Long before Z1 and the upscale shift. They used Dexron in their transmissions until 2000 when they created Z1. Another decade later, they started using DW1.
The new 10-speed automatic they just released does use planetary gears like most automatics, making it Honda's first in-house planetary gear automatic transmission (they also use the ZF9 on some cars)