It seems the power ratings for HT receivers has changed again. The last time I bought an HT receiver, the power rating was given for all channels driven. For example, a 5.1 receiver would have the power rating listed as 75 WRMS per channel x 5 channels. Now the rating for a 5.1 is listed as 75 WRMS x 2 channels. No power rating is given for 5 channels. So how is person supposed to know what the power is for all 5 channels? It's like every time they change the way a unit is rated, it give's manufacturers more leeway to lie, or at the very least, mislead consumers...I can still remember when the rating system was given as 75 WRMS, all channels driven from 20 to 20K Hz at < .008% THD. I guess this rating system didn't give them any wiggle room to cheat consumers...
Home Theater Receiver Power Ratings
- Thread starter grampi
- Start date
If it is a lower consumer grade model, then you are at the mercy of the sales and marketing team selling the unit. For higher end units, there are almost always independent bench tests you can find to give true RMS power ratings with multiple channels driven. Even high end units won't ever do the 100x7 20 to 20k claims on the box, as they are power supply limited. A good bench test will also tell you what the true all channels driven value is.
What Rx are you looking at?
What Rx are you looking at?
MolaKule
Staff member
AC Power delivered to a load is measured in Watts, which is P = IrmsXVrms and = Vrms^2/R and = Irms^2*R.
True Power should be measured this way: The output of the single amplifier channel is wired across a non-inductive resistor (purely resistive).
An oscilloscope probe is across the resistor and the volume at 1Khz is increased until one starts to see flattoping or other distortion.
The volume is backed down so only a pure since wave is seen. P = Vrms^2/R. Let's say you see 100V peak-to-peak across the 8 resistor. Vrms = 100Vpeak-to-peak/2.83 = 35.35 Voltsrms; 35 Voltsrms^2/8 ohms (speaker Impedance Z) = 1250/8 = 156 Watts, not RMS watts, not Music Power Watts, nor any other fake measurement.
True Power should be measured this way: The output of the single amplifier channel is wired across a non-inductive resistor (purely resistive).
An oscilloscope probe is across the resistor and the volume at 1Khz is increased until one starts to see flattoping or other distortion.
The volume is backed down so only a pure since wave is seen. P = Vrms^2/R. Let's say you see 100V peak-to-peak across the 8 resistor. Vrms = 100Vpeak-to-peak/2.83 = 35.35 Voltsrms; 35 Voltsrms^2/8 ohms (speaker Impedance Z) = 1250/8 = 156 Watts, not RMS watts, not Music Power Watts, nor any other fake measurement.
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Got rid of my PIONEER Elite receiver and all my speakers when we bought our Sony 75" HDTV, hated all the clutter, bought the JBL 5.1 sound bar and couldn't be happier, rated at 550w with a 10" sub. 
www.jbl.com
JBL Bar 5.1 Surround | 5.1 channel soundbar with MultiBeam™ Sound Technology
The impressive JBL Bar 5.1 Surround delivers the ultimate home cinematic experience. Bring viewing to life with 550 Watts of power and a 10’’ subwoofer.
www.jbl.com
Onkyo TX-SR393
+1 That
This is similar to my current setup. I have a Yamaha YAS-109 sound bar that has a sub out preamp that's plugged into a 12" sealed sub I built with a 500 WRMS amp. The sub does fine, but I'd like to run two front speakers, and a center channel speaker. I have a full 5.1 set of Polk Audio RT15Is, and while they are bookshelf speakers, they sound much better than this sound bar does. The are able to handle 100 watts each, and they sound fantastic when putting the power to them. I still have a Denon receiver, but it's an old one and it doesn't have any HDMI connections. I'm thinking about using the HDMI to RCA converter and just plug in the HDMI end to my TV's ARC jack, and the other end to the preamp inputs on the receiver. I know the power output of this receiver and it has plenty of power to run these speakers. It's also a 5.1 so I know it'll do the 3 separate speakers up front, plus it has a sub out...Got rid of my PIONEER Elite receiver and all my speakers when we bought our Sony 75" HDTV, hated all the clutter, bought the JBL 5.1 sound bar and couldn't be happier, rated at 550w with a 10" sub.
JBL Bar 5.1 Surround | 5.1 channel soundbar with MultiBeam™ Sound Technology
The impressive JBL Bar 5.1 Surround delivers the ultimate home cinematic experience. Bring viewing to life with 550 Watts of power and a 10’’ subwoofer.
Two front bookshelf speakers (Polk Audio RT15I), and one center channel speaker, also a Polk Audio...
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Looks like Denon is now using 20 - 20kHz @ 0.08% THD, but only 2 channels driven.
You could really go to town and buy components
Bryston has the SP3:
SP3 – Bryston
bryston.com
Which is a true 7.1 channel processor and pre-amp.
You could pair it with the 3-channel version of the 9B cubed:
9B³ Modular Multi-channel Amplifier – Bryston
bryston.com
Which will do 200W/channel into 8ohms, all channels driven, @0.005% THD
Mind you, the price might be a bit more than you want to spend, lol.
Here you go = (Onkyo TX-SR393)
Amplifier Section
Rated Output Power (FTC) (North American)
With 8 ohm loads, both channels driven, from 20-20,000 Hz; rated 80 watts per channel minimum RMS power, with no more than 0.08% total harmonic distortion from 250 milliwatts to rated output.
Rated Output Power (IEC) (Others)
5 ch × 135 W at 6 ohms, 1 kHz, 1 ch driven of 1% THD
Maximum Effective Output Power (North American) 155 W at 6 ohms, 1 kHz, 1 ch driven of 10% THD
Maximum Effective Output Power (IEC)
5 ch × 155 W at 6 ohms, 1 kHz, 1 ch driven of 10% THD (European)
Maximum Effective Output Power (JEITA)
5 ch × 155 W at 6 ohms, 1 kHz, 1 ch driven of 10% THD (Asian and Australian)
Dynamic Power (*)
* IEC60268-Short-term maximum output power
160 W (3 Ω, Front) 125 W (4 Ω, Front) 85 W (8 Ω, Front)
Here is the manual for the receiver, the specs are on page 91; https://www.onkyousa.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/TX-SR393_En.pdf
Im actually impressed that I was able to find REAL SPECS on a lower cost receiver. Power ratings are normally smoke and mirrors/marketing unless you spend significantly more. Im so impressed I am going to check this out further and some of their other models.
I understand PERFECTLY what you are saying and you are correct, "all channels driven from 20 to 20K Hz at < .008% THD" is the only legal way to disclose power ratings but others can be advertised to the best of my knowledge, not enforced I guess.
With that said, it just has to disclose what is being driven at what frequencies and the power that is delivered using white noise I believe or at least in this case seems to ahve some other confirming ratings maybe overseas.
So the numbers can say in the case of this amplifier which MANY companies do and people brag that they have a 500 watt amp when it really is only an 80 watt. This receiver could claim like 500 watts or 1000 watts one channel driven at 1kHz @ 1% THD which is super easy to do because its only one frequency in the whole sound spectrum!
More or less the power level now a days seems like it just has to describe how the number is being presented. But yes, I agree, I THINK they still need the FTC rating, though I find it hard to find sometimes.
I can see your old school, me too and ANYONE even young people who know about audio but the public is clueless and the manufacturers of cheap equipment know it.
Its a lower power receiver for sure BUT most likely very clean power and most likely will shake up a room to an uncomfortable level in a 15x15 room when a movie is playing way more so if you have a self powered sub which I think you do. The 80 Watt rating however is for standard 2 channels and will be less depending on demand of the side channels but I doubt you will notice anything unpleasant and would be happy.
With all this said, we both understand being this is a lower priced unit its credible that Oynko has a fairly nice set of numbers but way more expensive units will have more detail/power for things like a specific reading for the center channel.
Amplifier Section
Rated Output Power (FTC) (North American)
With 8 ohm loads, both channels driven, from 20-20,000 Hz; rated 80 watts per channel minimum RMS power, with no more than 0.08% total harmonic distortion from 250 milliwatts to rated output.
Rated Output Power (IEC) (Others)
5 ch × 135 W at 6 ohms, 1 kHz, 1 ch driven of 1% THD
Maximum Effective Output Power (North American) 155 W at 6 ohms, 1 kHz, 1 ch driven of 10% THD
Maximum Effective Output Power (IEC)
5 ch × 155 W at 6 ohms, 1 kHz, 1 ch driven of 10% THD (European)
Maximum Effective Output Power (JEITA)
5 ch × 155 W at 6 ohms, 1 kHz, 1 ch driven of 10% THD (Asian and Australian)
Dynamic Power (*)
* IEC60268-Short-term maximum output power
160 W (3 Ω, Front) 125 W (4 Ω, Front) 85 W (8 Ω, Front)
Here is the manual for the receiver, the specs are on page 91; https://www.onkyousa.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/TX-SR393_En.pdf
Im actually impressed that I was able to find REAL SPECS on a lower cost receiver. Power ratings are normally smoke and mirrors/marketing unless you spend significantly more. Im so impressed I am going to check this out further and some of their other models.
I understand PERFECTLY what you are saying and you are correct, "all channels driven from 20 to 20K Hz at < .008% THD" is the only legal way to disclose power ratings but others can be advertised to the best of my knowledge, not enforced I guess.
With that said, it just has to disclose what is being driven at what frequencies and the power that is delivered using white noise I believe or at least in this case seems to ahve some other confirming ratings maybe overseas.
So the numbers can say in the case of this amplifier which MANY companies do and people brag that they have a 500 watt amp when it really is only an 80 watt. This receiver could claim like 500 watts or 1000 watts one channel driven at 1kHz @ 1% THD which is super easy to do because its only one frequency in the whole sound spectrum!
More or less the power level now a days seems like it just has to describe how the number is being presented. But yes, I agree, I THINK they still need the FTC rating, though I find it hard to find sometimes.
I can see your old school, me too and ANYONE even young people who know about audio but the public is clueless and the manufacturers of cheap equipment know it.
Its a lower power receiver for sure BUT most likely very clean power and most likely will shake up a room to an uncomfortable level in a 15x15 room when a movie is playing way more so if you have a self powered sub which I think you do. The 80 Watt rating however is for standard 2 channels and will be less depending on demand of the side channels but I doubt you will notice anything unpleasant and would be happy.
With all this said, we both understand being this is a lower priced unit its credible that Oynko has a fairly nice set of numbers but way more expensive units will have more detail/power for things like a specific reading for the center channel.
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This is what grampi was referring too and my post right above this one.Got rid of my PIONEER Elite receiver and all my speakers when we bought our Sony 75" HDTV, hated all the clutter, bought the JBL 5.1 sound bar and couldn't be happier, rated at 550w with a 10" sub.
JBL Bar 5.1 Surround | 5.1 channel soundbar with MultiBeam™ Sound Technology
The impressive JBL Bar 5.1 Surround delivers the ultimate home cinematic experience. Bring viewing to life with 550 Watts of power and a 10’’ subwoofer.
That 550 watts most likely equals 30 useable watts per channel 40hz to 20khz chances or less except for the sub (maybe 50 watts) which I think I am being overly generous. (im just pulling numbers out of the air like JBL is) This misleading information has become rampant in the industry and there is no way to know the true power rating of this unit, because JBL does not reveal how the measurement is made, there is a reason they do not, if they did, they would not be able to say its a 550 watt system and maintain any integrity. Maybe molecule can figure out the power... but even he doesnt have enough information from JBL ... *LOL*
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Got rid of my PIONEER Elite receiver and all my speakers when we bought our Sony 75" HDTV, hated all the clutter, bought the JBL 5.1 sound bar and couldn't be happier, rated at 550w with a 10" sub.
JBL Bar 5.1 Surround | 5.1 channel soundbar with MultiBeam™ Sound Technology
The impressive JBL Bar 5.1 Surround delivers the ultimate home cinematic experience. Bring viewing to life with 550 Watts of power and a 10’’ subwoofer.
I just threw up a little in my mouth...
Kidding! I know everyone has their own taste in how something should sound, and the importance of aesthetics (WAF). My bride and I have a decent compromise...a paired down 3.1 system on the main floor where company will see it, and an extensive 9.2 system in the listening room
From the user manual...
Guessing 10W RMS of useable power each for the 5 drivers in the bar, and 30-50W RMS for the sub...and that is still probably over-stating the capability.
^^^ Excellent, I was looking for that information. Missed it somehow. yeah, Im sure you are correct. For years now, first with the outrageous claims of car audio years/decades? and as soon as "Home Theater" came along the deception became rampant in home audio.
Drives me NuTs.
Drives me NuTs.
MolaKule
Staff member
I would say that the specs in bold are more "electronics engineering" based (P = Vrms^2/R) and I am assuming this means they measured the voltage developed across the 8 ohm speaker impedance for a 20-20,000 Hz spectrum to arrive at real Watts.
Notice they changed the impedance (load) for the other specs from 8 ohms to 6 ohms and IMHO are nothing more than Marketing Fluff.
But Onkyo should be given a
for providing those specifications.
9.2? Meaning a pair of front highs for DTS or you are just duplicating a channel somewhere?I just threw up a little in my mouth...
Kidding! I know everyone has their own taste in how something should sound, and the importance of aesthetics (WAF). My bride and I have a decent compromise...a paired down 3.1 system on the main floor where company will see it, and an extensive 9.2 system in the listening room
Yeah, I saw the impedance load, and the 1khz, and the 1 channel, and the 10% distortion (THD) but you know? They do need to make it sound more powerful than is useful because all the competition does it in that price range and even higher price range.I would say that the specs in bold are more "electronics engineering" based (P = Vrms^2/R) and I am assuming this means they measured the voltage developed across the 8 ohm speaker impedance for a 20-20,000 Hz spectrum to arrive at real Watts.
Notice they changed the impedance (load) for the other specs from 8 ohms to 6 ohms and IMHO are nothing more than Marketing Fluff.
But Onkyo should be given a
So, agree, "fluff" but if they dont it will look like a weak receiver to the pubic because the public is clueless.
Again, I was impressed for a low cost AVR that the American FTC number was published and easy to find.
Those other numbers arent much use, I mean 10% THD is almost useless and the power rating based on one frequency that is not demanding (1 kHz) yet if they dont publish those numbers they put themselves at a competitive disadvantage and to their credit again, they do publish which country "commission" power level specification publishing (?) they are abiding by.
Side note: Onyko and Pioneer have/are struggling to survive, in fact closed down the US Subsidiary back in 2020. THE USA was their biggest market. Now, not saying they were going to go out of business but things weren't good.
Kind of sad, good equipment, mountain of debt and a world where big powerful stereo has been replaced by TV manufacturer sound bars, wireless ear buds and Bluetooth devices. The public doesnt care anymore, the cheap stuff is "good enough"even though they WAY overpay for it and dont even know it.
The company that distributes Klipsch now handles Oynko (and I presume Pioneer) in the USA> no, sense in me providing links just search "is onyko going out of business' or any other like term.
There is has been incredible consolidation in the audio world for the last 2 decades, its a shrinking market, low demand and only a handful will survive. The demand for quality audio equipment no l longer exists for the average household. What is cranked out by the appliance makers is "good enough" for them, much like a cable TV picture is "good enough"
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- Joined
- Dec 4, 2021
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At some point I will need to upgrade my 5 year old 7.1 system, but not yet. A sound bar would not cut it for the action movies and shows we watch - love surround sound.
I have found that AVS Forum is a good resource on all this stuff. Also DIY Audio, if so inclined.
I have found that AVS Forum is a good resource on all this stuff. Also DIY Audio, if so inclined.
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