Home inspector flagged multiple neutrals on single lug in breaker panel

[Rogueman2016s]

This x 1000

The home inspector is likely trying to look like his services are worth the money.

What I found out is most to many home inspectors have never worked any of the trades in electrical, plumbing hvac, construction and so forth they go by textbook/classroom hrs of knowledge documentation and situations. They may have a general idea of “national” code but what is done or practiced in local jurisdictions and municipalities is on another level. I’ve seen this many times especially with electrical there are areas not up to date with latest NEC and many inspectors will ok if it follows NEC standards and the work is performed in a safe manner which no physical damage could occur and life and safety doesn’t have a risk.

 

[andrew_j]

If the buyer punts reveal panel assess if panel meets code for time installed and reveal as such. Then next buyer cannot ask for money after the fact as it was revealed.

I sold a home with failed septic this way without much issue. First one demanded $35k the next I revealed and got same offer with -$5k as split of septic field only.

 

[Hall]

I'm nearly done replacing ALL the cheap contractor grade around our place. Seemingly never ending!

I think I've posted a picture here before but at least (2) of the kitchen counter outlets literally crumbled when something was being plugged in or unplugged. The build quality between the 50c outlets and $4 commercial-grade outlets is night and day.

 

[Al]

Where are the ground wires.

 

[Pablo]

Where are the ground wires.

Mixed in with the N wires, see the bare wires

 

[Bailes1992]

Mixed in with the N wires, see the bare wires

That confused me also.

We use 'TNCS' (assume you have another name for combining the Neutral and Earth in the US?) in a lot of properties in the UK. However, it is split at the service head so you still have separate Earth and Neutral conductors coming into the property. The advantage of course being far lower earth fault loop resistance compared to using the armouring/sheath of the supply cable as the earth or installing an earth rod.

I've often thought about moving to the US but I think carrying on my current expertise (Electrician by trade but work as an Electrical Engineer) would be totally impossible without retraining as everything is so different.

 

[Hall]

the Neutral and Earth in the US

Earth = ground (same thing)

 

[Rogueman2016s]

Where are the ground wires.

The panel doesn’t appear to be grounded via ground rods etc wouldn’t be surprised if the water service is not grounded/bonded either.

 

[Hall]

The panel doesn’t appear to be grounded via ground rods etc wouldn’t be surprised if the water service is not grounded/bonded either.

The OP's house is new enough that it might use plastic piping for plumbing. Have to use a ground rod in those cases, don't you ? Ours uses plastic as well and even the city's incoming water pipe is plastic, as I recall (or it transitions to plastic as soon as it comes through the foundation.

 

[Hillbilly Deluxe]

The panel doesn’t appear to be grounded via ground rods etc wouldn’t be surprised if the water service is not grounded/bonded either.

Any ground or neutral issue would have reared it's ugly head by now. The OP doesn't report any issues.

 

[mk378]

The OP doesn't report any issues.

There is a lack of redundancy that will make a failure worse. The house's local ground is in case the connection to the electric company ground fails.

There is supposed to be a heavy bare wire on the ground/neutral bus leading to something grounded. Typically the ground wire is #6 bare copper and leaves through the bottom of the box.

 

[Hall]

There is supposed to be a heavy bare wire on the ground/neutral bus leading to something grounded

I don't even see a provision for connection anything heavier than 10-12 gauge wire on the neutral/ground bus though.

 

[2005jettatdi]

Cutting the wires to exact length like that is poor practice since it makes any rework difficult. I like to run them to the bottom of the box then back up so there is enough slack to move one anywhere. This also greatly simplifies the replacement of the whole panel, should that ever be necessary. It may look sloppy but there's a reason for it.

Also the overhanging ends of many of the white wires are way too long and blocking the lower row of screws.

Definitely a code violation. Dumb, but not as dangerous as double tapping a breaker.

You may have a problem with neutral wires being too short to connect to the buss. This indicates whoever wired it did not do a good job. It should not have passed inspection a long time ago. Correcting it is simple, if you have enough wire, and should not require an electrician. However, you may feel safer having a professional do it.

I do not use aluminum wire for anything. While copper might be harder to bend, it also allows you to go two sizes down from aluminum. That makes bending easier. Aluminum wire should have an anti-oxidation paste on it when installed.

Your panel has Neutrals and Grounds on the same buss bars, you need to get those split out to where one bar is for grounds and one bar is for neutrals. You should be able to do this yourself, this isn't transplanting a kidney.

I have never seen that be an issue. But then, I am not an electrician.

 

[zzyzzx]

Dumb, but not as dangerous as double tapping a breaker.

Certain types of Square D and Cutler-Hammer Breakers do allow two conductors

 

[ARCOgraphite]

I don't even see a provision for connection anything heavier than 10-12 gauge wire on the neutral/ground bus though.

That bar will accept 6ga. I Just looked at mine. I have a hot tube 6-3 feed.
IN the OP photo, look at the terminal screw heads raised above the bar with four or more #14 and #12 N and GND under them.
Gasp. Just noticed My panel has N and GND on a single terminal - but they are side by side - not that that helps IMO. Cu is quite plastic, probably forms a better bond with 4 or 5 in there.

Two Masters never mentioned an issue with that. Gave 'em all a yank with pliers - they are all on there.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

There is a lack of redundancy that will make a failure worse. The house's local ground is in case the connection to the electric company ground fails.

There is supposed to be a heavy bare wire on the ground/neutral bus leading to something grounded. Typically the ground wire is #6 bare copper and leaves through the bottom of the box.

He is likely set up like mine where the GND/earthing is outside at the meter socket (box) Mine has bare cable out to the bottom knock out to 3 earthing rods which are daisy chained. I have no iron pipe to water service - I have 1-1/4 HDPE IIRC from a drill deep well.

 

[2005jettatdi]

Certain types of Square D and Cutler-Hammer Breakers do allow two conductors

Not unless they are a two pole breaker. Some Square D breakers may be designed to allow to wires, but it is NOT up to code. Everyone should have a current copy of Wiring Simplified if they are going to mess with electricity.

 

[zzyzzx]

Not unless they are a two pole breaker. Some Square D breakers may be designed to allow to wires, but it is NOT up to code. Everyone should have a current copy of Wiring Simplified if they are going to mess with electricity.

As far as I can tell, they do exist, but just not all that common:

What Is A Double Tapped Circuit Breaker? - Brightside Home Inspections

A double tap is a common electrical defect in electric service panels, but what does it mean? And what can be done about it?

brightsidehomeinspections.com

 

[dlundblad]

That confused me also.

We use 'TNCS' (assume you have another name for combining the Neutral and Earth in the US?) in a lot of properties in the UK. However, it is split at the service head so you still have separate Earth and Neutral conductors coming into the property. The advantage of course being far lower earth fault loop resistance compared to using the armouring/sheath of the supply cable as the earth or installing an earth rod.

I've often thought about moving to the US but I think carrying on my current expertise (Electrician by trade but work as an Electrical Engineer) would be totally impossible without retraining as everything is so different.

Service entering the building is also grounded? Are homes typically single or 3 phase?

I’m not familiar with non US systems, but in the US, we have 2 feeds of 120 volts and a neutral for the average home. Single phase center tapped transformer. The frequency of the 2 phases is opposite thus the 2 phases and 2 120 volt feeds. The service is grounded at the first means of disconnect and also bonded (combing Earth and neutral.)
______
The inspector was right to flag the panel for the multiple wires under 1 screw. They could very well be loose.

The bigger issue (unless I’m missing something), the panel doesn’t appear to be bonded while grounds and neutrals are separated.

 

[CDX825]

Service entering the building is also grounded? Are homes typically single or 3 phase?

I’m not familiar with non US systems, but in the US, we have 2 feeds of 120 volts and a neutral for the average home. Single phase center tapped transformer. The frequency of the 2 phases is opposite thus the 2 phases and 2 120 volt feeds. The service is grounded at the first means of disconnect and also bonded (combing Earth and neutral.)
______
The inspector was right to flag the panel for the multiple wires under 1 screw. They could very well be loose.

The bigger issue (unless I’m missing something), the panel doesn’t appear to be bonded while grounds and neutrals are separated.

Check out "N Bundy Electrical" on youtube sometime if you are curious about how they wire houses across the pond. Way different from what we have here.
https://www.youtube.com/@NBundyElectrical