It is nice to see everyone have such a passion about their cars. It keeps the automobile industry going. Once you are really and truly involved behind the scenes and know all the marketing and politics involved, the passion reduces or dies. Many never look at an automobile the same way. The public is naive and the media feeds off of the actions created behind the scenes. Sometimes knowing too much is dangerous.
Hoe-Lee-Cow -- 0w-20 Forever!!!
- Thread starter ekpolk
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ekpolk, just to be a good sport - here is toyota's site: http://pressroom.toyota.com
Lots of interesting reading you might enjoy.
Lots of interesting reading you might enjoy.
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Perhaps it is you, Jo, who should break out the calculator.
So Jo, gotcha then, according to you, the Honda Fit is a bigger car than the Acura TL. Allright, sitting on TL's 109.3 inch wheelbase, it is still a smaller car than the Honda Fit, sitting on its 98.4 inch wheelbase!!! OK, Playing your game, let's add up the numbers. The TL, even in 2wd form has 98.2 of interior volume and that massive 13.1 cubic foot trunk. Together, those equal 111.3 cubic feet. The Fit, by your numbers, has 90.8 of interior and 20.6 of cargo room, for a total of 111.4.
Now, let's look at the Camry hybrid. 101.4 cubes of interior and the 10.6 cube trunk (and I don't care if you call it micro-freakin-scopic -- still works for me). That would be a total of -- ding ding ding -- 112 cubes of total space. More than either the Fit or the Acura TL.
Back to math class for you, Jo. . .
More to the point, I think this is a pretty convincing proof that there's more to cars than the bare numbers that represent their measurements. Are you prepared, Jo, to declare that the Fit is a "larger" car than the Acura TL???
BTW, you still have yet to address any of the questions I posed to you in 1529609, above. Don't worry, I won't hold my breath.
Now, regarding the 85 cube figure from above, back tracking my links, it looks like I inadvertently ended up on the 2010 Insight (Honda's new mini-Prius facimile car...). So you're right (as to the 85 cu ft number), but you're still wrong (see above...).
All of which still begs the question: from what part of my original intent did you take an invitation to turn this into a diesel v hybrid or Toyota v Honda diatribe???
So Jo, gotcha then, according to you, the Honda Fit is a bigger car than the Acura TL. Allright, sitting on TL's 109.3 inch wheelbase, it is still a smaller car than the Honda Fit, sitting on its 98.4 inch wheelbase!!! OK, Playing your game, let's add up the numbers. The TL, even in 2wd form has 98.2 of interior volume and that massive 13.1 cubic foot trunk. Together, those equal 111.3 cubic feet. The Fit, by your numbers, has 90.8 of interior and 20.6 of cargo room, for a total of 111.4.
Now, let's look at the Camry hybrid. 101.4 cubes of interior and the 10.6 cube trunk (and I don't care if you call it micro-freakin-scopic -- still works for me). That would be a total of -- ding ding ding -- 112 cubes of total space. More than either the Fit or the Acura TL.
Back to math class for you, Jo. . .
More to the point, I think this is a pretty convincing proof that there's more to cars than the bare numbers that represent their measurements. Are you prepared, Jo, to declare that the Fit is a "larger" car than the Acura TL???
BTW, you still have yet to address any of the questions I posed to you in 1529609, above. Don't worry, I won't hold my breath.
Now, regarding the 85 cube figure from above, back tracking my links, it looks like I inadvertently ended up on the 2010 Insight (Honda's new mini-Prius facimile car...). So you're right (as to the 85 cu ft number), but you're still wrong (see above...).
All of which still begs the question: from what part of my original intent did you take an invitation to turn this into a diesel v hybrid or Toyota v Honda diatribe???
This is turning into a "size matters" thread.
Yes...size of the weight...how many pounds will you trade to get a car you find with acceptable mileage, performance and comfort?
Originally Posted By: ravenchris
Yes...size of the weight...how many pounds will you trade to get a car you find with acceptable mileage, performance and comfort?
Here's an amazing fact. A Vette with a 405 HP V8 (6-speed) can get 30 mpg avg on the highway if driven mellow (65~70 mph). Who needs a Prius?
Yes...size of the weight...how many pounds will you trade to get a car you find with acceptable mileage, performance and comfort?
Here's an amazing fact. A Vette with a 405 HP V8 (6-speed) can get 30 mpg avg on the highway if driven mellow (65~70 mph). Who needs a Prius?
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: daman
Ok got a Q(was going to start my own topic but),,,i too was thinking of trying a 0w20 in my '00 sunfire 2.2l 4 cyl 185,000 miles runs GREAT uses NO oil, now GM recommends 5w30 does anyone see a problem with running a 0w20 AFE M1 of course in this?
M1's 0w20 is at the upper end of a 20w(8.6)vs a 5w30 (11.3)
Well, it says in the manual that you can, or even should, use 0W-30 synthetic if the ambient temp is around -25F. I doubt you'd have any problems using a quality synthetic in any grade...
Dang!!! Just as soon as I next see -25F here (in Pensacola!), I will promptly refill with 0w-30! Hey, just having fun with that idea!
Well, honestly, even here in snowy Buffalo, I've never seen it anywhere near -25F. The coldest start I can recall was at -6F, and that was epic cold as Lake Erie blasts us with snow all winter, but also prevents us from getting the mid-western style subzero temps.
In any case, GM doesn't just strictly mandate 5W-30, and I think more than a few have used 5W-20 in their GM (or any other) products not specifying it...
Plus the 2.2L OHV is pretty easy on the oil...
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: daman
Ok got a Q(was going to start my own topic but),,,i too was thinking of trying a 0w20 in my '00 sunfire 2.2l 4 cyl 185,000 miles runs GREAT uses NO oil, now GM recommends 5w30 does anyone see a problem with running a 0w20 AFE M1 of course in this?
M1's 0w20 is at the upper end of a 20w(8.6)vs a 5w30 (11.3)
Well, it says in the manual that you can, or even should, use 0W-30 synthetic if the ambient temp is around -25F. I doubt you'd have any problems using a quality synthetic in any grade...
Dang!!! Just as soon as I next see -25F here (in Pensacola!), I will promptly refill with 0w-30! Hey, just having fun with that idea!
Well, honestly, even here in snowy Buffalo, I've never seen it anywhere near -25F. The coldest start I can recall was at -6F, and that was epic cold as Lake Erie blasts us with snow all winter, but also prevents us from getting the mid-western style subzero temps.
In any case, GM doesn't just strictly mandate 5W-30, and I think more than a few have used 5W-20 in their GM (or any other) products not specifying it...
Plus the 2.2L OHV is pretty easy on the oil...
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Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: ravenchris
Yes...size of the weight...how many pounds will you trade to get a car you find with acceptable mileage, performance and comfort?
Here's an amazing fact. A Vette with a 405 HP V8 (6-speed) can get 30 mpg avg on the highway if driven mellow (65~70 mph). Who needs a Prius?
If driven mellow, a Prius can get double that and cost $10s of thousands less.
Originally Posted By: ravenchris
Yes...size of the weight...how many pounds will you trade to get a car you find with acceptable mileage, performance and comfort?
Here's an amazing fact. A Vette with a 405 HP V8 (6-speed) can get 30 mpg avg on the highway if driven mellow (65~70 mph). Who needs a Prius?
If driven mellow, a Prius can get double that and cost $10s of thousands less.
Edit:
Feel free to repost your comments in a more civil manner.
Feel free to repost your comments in a more civil manner.
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Originally Posted By: ekpolk
All of which still begs the question: from what part of my original intent did you take an invitation to turn this into a diesel v hybrid or Toyota v Honda diatribe???
When you thought 39.4 MPG on a 500 mile highway trip was good for a mid size 4 cyl hybrid camry sedan. The standard 4 cyl Honda Accord or Acura TSX would get mid 30s (34-36) while nicer Acura TL with V6 power would get low 30s. Now the Fit pic at 50+ mpg is impressive.
All of which still begs the question: from what part of my original intent did you take an invitation to turn this into a diesel v hybrid or Toyota v Honda diatribe???
When you thought 39.4 MPG on a 500 mile highway trip was good for a mid size 4 cyl hybrid camry sedan. The standard 4 cyl Honda Accord or Acura TSX would get mid 30s (34-36) while nicer Acura TL with V6 power would get low 30s. Now the Fit pic at 50+ mpg is impressive.
ekpolk. Seems you are confused on which way you want to argue. Total room or length. Fact, the TL is longer than the Camry.
Fact, there is less than 1 ft3 difference in total room between a Fit, TL or Camry.
Fact, there is less than 1 ft3 difference in total room between a Fit, TL or Camry.
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Yes, the two cars sit on the same wheelbase. So why is it that the TL gives up over three cubic feet of passenger volume to the Camry? 98.2 vs 101.4. The TL, 2WD version has 13.1 cubes of trunk, against the TCH's 10.6. And if you really want to start picking nits about trunk space, perhaps you can justify how the V-6 Camry, still on the same wheelbase, still with three cubes more interior, gives the customer 15 cubes of trunk, to the Acura's mere 13?
Difference in passenger room is 3.2 ft3. Added to TCH trunk of 10.6 equals 13.8. Where did you get 15? Can you explain your math?
Yes, the two cars sit on the same wheelbase. So why is it that the TL gives up over three cubic feet of passenger volume to the Camry? 98.2 vs 101.4. The TL, 2WD version has 13.1 cubes of trunk, against the TCH's 10.6. And if you really want to start picking nits about trunk space, perhaps you can justify how the V-6 Camry, still on the same wheelbase, still with three cubes more interior, gives the customer 15 cubes of trunk, to the Acura's mere 13?
Difference in passenger room is 3.2 ft3. Added to TCH trunk of 10.6 equals 13.8. Where did you get 15? Can you explain your math?
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Originally Posted By: joflewbyu2
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
All of which still begs the question: from what part of my original intent did you take an invitation to turn this into a diesel v hybrid or Toyota v Honda diatribe???
When you thought 39.4 MPG on a 500 mile highway trip was good for a mid size 4 cyl hybrid camry sedan. The standard 4 cyl Honda Accord or Acura TSX would get mid 30s (34-36) while nicer Acura TL with V6 power would get low 30s. Now the Fit pic at 50+ mpg is impressive.
OK, very slowly now: do you understand that the Fit weighs over a half-ton less (~1200 lbs or so) LESS than a Camry hybrid. As I've said before, the Fit is a nice car, buy continuing to throw out that number continues to prove that you are not interested in making sensible, apples-to-apples comparisons.
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
All of which still begs the question: from what part of my original intent did you take an invitation to turn this into a diesel v hybrid or Toyota v Honda diatribe???
When you thought 39.4 MPG on a 500 mile highway trip was good for a mid size 4 cyl hybrid camry sedan. The standard 4 cyl Honda Accord or Acura TSX would get mid 30s (34-36) while nicer Acura TL with V6 power would get low 30s. Now the Fit pic at 50+ mpg is impressive.
OK, very slowly now: do you understand that the Fit weighs over a half-ton less (~1200 lbs or so) LESS than a Camry hybrid. As I've said before, the Fit is a nice car, buy continuing to throw out that number continues to prove that you are not interested in making sensible, apples-to-apples comparisons.
Originally Posted By: joflewbyu2
ekpolk. Seems you are confused on which way you want to argue. Total room or length. Fact, the TL is longer than the Camry.
Fact, there is less than 1 ft3 difference in total room between a Fit, TL or Camry.
Jo, Seems you are confused about what I actually am arguing. Thus far, I have said NOT ONE WORD about the length of any of the cars we've been discussing. The closest I've come is wheelbase. Please read carefully.
ekpolk. Seems you are confused on which way you want to argue. Total room or length. Fact, the TL is longer than the Camry.
Fact, there is less than 1 ft3 difference in total room between a Fit, TL or Camry.
Jo, Seems you are confused about what I actually am arguing. Thus far, I have said NOT ONE WORD about the length of any of the cars we've been discussing. The closest I've come is wheelbase. Please read carefully.
Originally Posted By: joflewbyu2
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Yes, the two cars sit on the same wheelbase. So why is it that the TL gives up over three cubic feet of passenger volume to the Camry? 98.2 vs 101.4. The TL, 2WD version has 13.1 cubes of trunk, against the TCH's 10.6. And if you really want to start picking nits about trunk space, perhaps you can justify how the V-6 Camry, still on the same wheelbase, still with three cubes more interior, gives the customer 15 cubes of trunk, to the Acura's mere 13?
Difference in passenger room is 3.2 ft3. Added to TCH trunk of 10.6 equals 13.8. Where did you get 15? Can you explain your math?
Again, you're not reading carefully. Let's try again. I said,
Quote:
And if you really want to start picking nits about trunk space, perhaps you can justify how the V-6 Camry, still on the same wheelbase, still with three cubes more interior, gives the customer 15 cubes of trunk, to the Acura's mere 13?
OK, have we re-read this? It is the V-6 Camry that had 15 cubes of trunk. This is in response to your suggestion that somehow the TCH's trunk space is insufficient, whereas the TL's is not. Well, there's your TL, same wheelbase, longer body, more cramped cabin, same gas tank as the regular Camry, and the Camrys (except the hybrid) still offer up a full two cubes more trunk than the TL. If you want to compare a TL to a member of the Camry family, you really should be looking at the V-6 Camry, not the Hybrid.
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Yes, the two cars sit on the same wheelbase. So why is it that the TL gives up over three cubic feet of passenger volume to the Camry? 98.2 vs 101.4. The TL, 2WD version has 13.1 cubes of trunk, against the TCH's 10.6. And if you really want to start picking nits about trunk space, perhaps you can justify how the V-6 Camry, still on the same wheelbase, still with three cubes more interior, gives the customer 15 cubes of trunk, to the Acura's mere 13?
Difference in passenger room is 3.2 ft3. Added to TCH trunk of 10.6 equals 13.8. Where did you get 15? Can you explain your math?
Again, you're not reading carefully. Let's try again. I said,
Quote:
And if you really want to start picking nits about trunk space, perhaps you can justify how the V-6 Camry, still on the same wheelbase, still with three cubes more interior, gives the customer 15 cubes of trunk, to the Acura's mere 13?
OK, have we re-read this? It is the V-6 Camry that had 15 cubes of trunk. This is in response to your suggestion that somehow the TCH's trunk space is insufficient, whereas the TL's is not. Well, there's your TL, same wheelbase, longer body, more cramped cabin, same gas tank as the regular Camry, and the Camrys (except the hybrid) still offer up a full two cubes more trunk than the TL. If you want to compare a TL to a member of the Camry family, you really should be looking at the V-6 Camry, not the Hybrid.
Originally Posted By: joflewbyu2
ekpolk. Seems you are confused on which way you want to argue. Total room or length. Fact, the TL is longer than the Camry.
Fact, there is less than 1 ft3 difference in total room between a Fit, TL or Camry.
Again, no confusion at all here.
Fact: you're distorting the numbers, and you're doing this because you know that the presence of the battery in the trunk area creates a disproportionately small trunk volume in the hybrid Camry.
Let's keep it to cabin space, we'll do cargo separately. Camry, TL, Fit. 101.4, 98.2, 90.8. Passenger volume is where the humans sit. Surely, you don't ride in your trunk, do you? That said, if you behave as nicely toward your real world acquaintances as you treat us here, you might just find yourself stuffed into one at some point. . . Lighten up.
ekpolk. Seems you are confused on which way you want to argue. Total room or length. Fact, the TL is longer than the Camry.
Fact, there is less than 1 ft3 difference in total room between a Fit, TL or Camry.
Again, no confusion at all here.
Fact: you're distorting the numbers, and you're doing this because you know that the presence of the battery in the trunk area creates a disproportionately small trunk volume in the hybrid Camry.
Let's keep it to cabin space, we'll do cargo separately. Camry, TL, Fit. 101.4, 98.2, 90.8. Passenger volume is where the humans sit. Surely, you don't ride in your trunk, do you? That said, if you behave as nicely toward your real world acquaintances as you treat us here, you might just find yourself stuffed into one at some point. . . Lighten up.
Originally Posted By: BrianWC
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: ravenchris
Yes...size of the weight...how many pounds will you trade to get a car you find with acceptable mileage, performance and comfort?
Here's an amazing fact. A Vette with a 405 HP V8 (6-speed) can get 30 mpg avg on the highway if driven mellow (65~70 mph). Who needs a Prius?
If driven mellow, a Prius can get double that and cost $10s of thousands less.
... I knew someone would say that. Well, all I can say to that is a) A Vette is much more fun to drive, b) A Vette looks a lot better, c) A Vette is an American Icon. What more would ya want?
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: ravenchris
Yes...size of the weight...how many pounds will you trade to get a car you find with acceptable mileage, performance and comfort?
Here's an amazing fact. A Vette with a 405 HP V8 (6-speed) can get 30 mpg avg on the highway if driven mellow (65~70 mph). Who needs a Prius?
If driven mellow, a Prius can get double that and cost $10s of thousands less.
Boy, you are trying to wiggle yourself out any which way possible since your embarrassing post. Bottom line is the hybrid system adds a lot of weight and takes up a lot of trunk room. You can't keep using them as an excuse for comparisons to heavier cars. Total cubic feet of all 3 (Fit, TL, Camry hybrid) are comparable. First it was room which I showed you all are comparable. Then it was size comparisons to smaller cars in which I showed you the TL is longer. Then it was weight which I showed you the TL is heavier. Now you are throwing a V6 Camry trunk room into the mix since the hybrid is embarrassing you after my packaging comment.
Originally Posted By: BrianWC
No disagreement from me. I love Vettes! But I'd never buy one as an economy car!
Although, I bet more than one 40-50-something man has used that argument with his wife.
... yeah, people don't buy them as an "economy car" but I get a lot of puzzled looks from people's faces when you tell them you can get the same gas mileage as their 4 banger econo box when they are parked next to each other and the guy with the econo box says: "Hey, what kind of gas mileage do you get with that rocket?". He just gets this wierd look on his face ... thinking "WTH? ... that's what I get!".
No disagreement from me. I love Vettes! But I'd never buy one as an economy car!
Although, I bet more than one 40-50-something man has used that argument with his wife.
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