High quality 5W40 for BMW

[ChristianReske]

A Honda S2000 could do magic: I could make a 5w-40 out of Mobil 1 5w-50 in no time. About Two trips to the grocery store and this oil is sheared down. This was proven in the german Honda S2000 Form. There is one guy wich claims to work at Mobil Germany as Engineer / Chemitrist wich reccomends this oil because, he explains, after it sheared down it is "Stable" over the OCI.
So, sorry when i am VERY, VERY sceptical about a oil wich contains a lot of VI Improvers in a really high reving, demanding engine.

 

[ChristianReske]

If you look at an oil like the popular 0W40 from M1, I saw more of a viscosity drop over an interval in my car than any other oil I've run. As I understand it and of course...can be wrong...that's due in-part to shearing down related to the VIIs necessary to get that spread. HPL makes a new no VII line but you won't see a 0W40, 5W30 Euro is the closest thing. Also, I run the HPL 5W40 Euro and the VIIs according to them are the highest quality "Star" type and resist that shearing more than others used. So far, my viscosity drops have been more reasonable using this.

THANK YOU. You understand me. I am very concerned about viscositiy loss, shearing down.
Thats why i try to use a oil with a small viscosity spread. The main Problem is, that nobody can tell from a VOA wich VI Improvers the manufacturers are using.

 

[kschachn]

THANK YOU. You understand me. I am very concerned about viscositiy loss, shearing down.
Thats why i try to use a oil with a small viscosity spread. The main Problem is, that nobody can tell from a VOA wich VI Improvers the manufacturers are using.

But do you have an engine that causes mechanical shearing of the VII? I know you talk about piston speed and other things but have you observed a problem via a conclusive UOA showing shear? This is actually quite rare here on Bitog.

If you really, really have a problem then go with a low or no-VII oil with an adequate HT/HS. Don't worry about grade. If you don't know if you have a problem then find out before jumping off the cliff.

 

[ChristianReske]

But do you have an engine that causes mechanical shearing of the VII? I know you talk about piston speed and other things but have you observed a problem via a conclusive UOA showing shear? This is actually quite rare here on Bitog.

If you really, really have a problem then go with a low or no-VII oil with an adequate HT/HS. Don't worry about grade. If you don't know if you have a problem then find out before jumping off the cliff.

See my Post Nr. 163 here. I am VERY concernd about Shearing of VII !
That is the reason why i am using a 10w-40 at the Moment.

 

[kschachn]

See my Post Nr. 163 here. I am VERY concernd about Shearing of VII !
That is the reason why i am using a 10w-40 at the Moment.

Again, nearly every instance of viscosity deviation on here is due to fuel dilution. This S2000 “proof” has been conclusively shown to be mechanical shear? And Mobil 1 5W-50? You’re using this oil? You want that high of an HT/HS? Why? And you have this specific engine? A tendency for mechanical shear is highly dependent on specific engine design.

And again, make sure there is a problem for the oil you’re using in your engine, not some dood on an Internet forum that may or may not know what he’s doing. Drawing blanket conclusions from this is bound to be problematic.

You’re going off the deep edge a bit. If you’re really really that worried (with no apparent proof) then do as I said, find an oil with an adequate HT/HS that has minimal high-quality VII rather than rant about some phantom you don’t even know is in the house.

 

[Astro14]

Page 8 in this Thread and we go round and around and around and around....

My question, again, is:
- why are 10w-40 oils reccomended in Motorcycles, engines wich runs hot and with high pistons speeds?
And, by the way, this oils tend to shear down in no time in these engines.
- If 0w-40 is the best oil, why is it not reccomeded for Motorcycles?
- Is a 0w-40, wich have (a lot of) VI Improvers, still god enough when you have a really high reving car engine with a much higher then usuall piston speed?
- Why did the manufacturer of such a Engine reccomend a 10w-30, a (almost) VI Improver free oil?

Basic question: 0w-40, thin Base oil with VI Improver vs. 10w-30 or 10w-40, thick Base oil (Almost) without VI Improver.
Wich oil protects such a very high reving engine with a very high piston speed better when you use the enigne hard?
Could the VI Improvers whitstand the stress in such a Engine?

That is my question. Still waiting for a scientific, reasonable, sound answer.

Your question has been answered several times.

The only reason we’re going round and round is your didactic refusal to accept another point of view.

You show up in thread after thread making your 10W40 motorcycle piston speed argument.

You’re the source of contention, and it’s contention, it’s no longer debate.

We are heading for a thread lock.

 

[OVERKILL]

A Honda S2000 could do magic: I could make a 5w-40 out of Mobil 1 5w-50 in no time. About Two trips to the grocery store and this oil is sheared down. This was proven in the german Honda S2000 Form. There is one guy wich claims to work at Mobil Germany as Engineer / Chemitrist wich reccomends this oil because, he explains, after it sheared down it is "Stable" over the OCI.
So, sorry when i am VERY, VERY sceptical about a oil wich contains a lot of VI Improvers in a really high reving, demanding engine.

The S2000 calls for nothing more than a basic API approved 10W-30 or 5W-40 (if operated in cooler climates). There's no stipulation on VII content and most basic API 10W-30's aren't going to have little to no VII in them. They might have less than the same basic API 5W-30, but there's also no guarantee there either. A cheaply based 10W-30 that meets Honda's requirements could easily have the same or even more VII in it than a 0W-40, as could a 5W-40. Castrol famously uses no PAO in their 5W-40 while using a considerable amount in the 0W-40, both oils likely have very similar VII content.

Here's a PAO-based 5W-30 with 11.74% VII:

Here's a PAO/Group III 0W-40 with 9.4% VII:

Here's a 5W-40 with 10% VII:

Here's a 10W-40 with 9.8% VII and blended using straight Group II+, you'll note the Group III one has 9.6% VII content:

Honda didn't assume an oil with little to no VII would be used in this engine's development, if they had, they would have created a proprietary spec that stipulated it. Since all they required was the basic API approval of the day, which wasn't overly rigorous, the conclusion one can draw is that this was adequate, regardless of concerns over piston speed and the like.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

The S2000 calls for nothing more than a basic API approved 10W-30 or 5W-40 (if operated in cooler climates). There's no stipulation on VII content and most basic API 10W-30's aren't going to have little to no VII in them. They might have less than the same basic API 5W-30, but there's also no guarantee there either. A cheaply based 10W-30 that meets Honda's requirements could easily have the same or even more VII in it than a 0W-40, as could a 5W-40. Castrol famously uses no PAO in their 5W-40 while using a considerable amount in the 0W-40, both oils likely have very similar VII content.

Here's a PAO-based 5W-30 with 11.74% VII:
View attachment 143939
Here's a PAO/Group III 0W-40 with 9.4% VII:
View attachment 143940
Here's a 5W-40 with 10% VII:
View attachment 143943
Here's a 10W-40 with 9.8% VII and blended using straight Group II+, you'll note the Group III one has 9.6% VII content:
View attachment 143944

Honda didn't assume an oil with little to no VII would be used in this engine's development, if they had, they would have created a proprietary spec that stipulated it. Since all they required was the basic API approval of the day, which wasn't overly rigorous, the conclusion one can draw is that this was adequate, regardless of concerns over piston speed and the like.

Doooood, there you go again with science and facts! How are emotions going to help sort out all the 30 vs 40 questions if you shoot holes in all the arguments?

 

[userfriendly]

The S2000 calls for nothing more than a basic API approved 10W-30 or 5W-40 (if operated in cooler climates). There's no stipulation on VII content and most basic API 10W-30's aren't going to have little to no VII in them. They might have less than the same basic API 5W-30, but there's also no guarantee there either. A cheaply based 10W-30 that meets Honda's requirements could easily have the same or even more VII in it than a 0W-40, as could a 5W-40. Castrol famously uses no PAO in their 5W-40 while using a considerable amount in the 0W-40, both oils likely have very similar VII content.

Here's a PAO-based 5W-30 with 11.74% VII:
View attachment 143939
Here's a PAO/Group III 0W-40 with 9.4% VII:
View attachment 143940
Here's a 5W-40 with 10% VII:
View attachment 143943
Here's a 10W-40 with 9.8% VII and blended using straight Group II+, you'll note the Group III one has 9.6% VII content:
View attachment 143944

Honda didn't assume an oil with little to no VII would be used in this engine's development, if they had, they would have created a proprietary spec that stipulated it. Since all they required was the basic API approval of the day, which wasn't overly rigorous, the conclusion one can draw is that this was adequate, regardless of concerns over piston speed and the like.

The above examples are found in the exxon mobil formulation guide. The 5W30 "full synthetic commercial" 5w30 may not be available,
but shows what can be achieved using the new (mPAO??) base oil.
I would guess the price directly from Mobil would be $2,000 USD for a 208L drum, and (at least) twice that in consumer packaging on
store shelves.

www.exxonmobilchemical.com

 

[Astro14]

Put another way - @ChristianReske - your methodology is flawed, and you are failing to differentiate between:

A 10W40 with poor quality base stocks may relies heavily on VII to achieve that viscosity spread.

A high quality 0W40 with better basestocks, using less VII to achieve that viscosity spread.

By examining only viscosity spread, you are ignoring the quality of the base stocks, the quality of the additives, including the VII, and so you are ignoring the actual resistance to shearing.

You‘re using an artifact of viscosity labeling as a proxy for determining how durable, how resistant to shearing, the oil will be. That’s a false equivalence.

If you’re really worried about the failure of VII, then buy an oil without it.

But by adhering to your viscosity spread analysis, you’re ignoring much more significant factors and ruling out much better oils than what you might be using.

 

[Sam_Julier]

Buy HPL No VII Euro and be done with it. Problem solved.

Enough is enough.

 

[userfriendly]

Buy HPL No VII Euro and be done with it. Problem solved.

Enough is enough.

In which SAE grade?

I was thinking of my no VM (VII) 50/50 $4L custom 3-season blend of Petro-Canada Duron SAE 30 & 40. (20W40)

40C 110
100C 12.7
150C 3.8
PP -28C
P .120
Zn .132
BN 8.2

You might notice the high 150C/100C viscosity of mono-grade engine oil.
When there's more than one solution to a problem, the cheapest is correct.

 

[ChristianReske]

Put another way - @ChristianReske - your methodology is flawed, and you are failing to differentiate between:

A 10W40 with poor quality base stocks may relies heavily on VII to achieve that viscosity spread.

A high quality 0W40 with better basestocks, using less VII to achieve that viscosity spread.

By examining only viscosity spread, you are ignoring the quality of the base stocks, the quality of the additives, including the VII, and so you are ignoring the actual resistance to shearing.

You‘re using an artifact of viscosity labeling as a proxy for determining how durable, how resistant to shearing, the oil will be. That’s a false equivalence.

If you’re really worried about the failure of VII, then buy an oil without it.

But by adhering to your viscosity spread analysis, you’re ignoring much more significant factors and ruling out much better oils than what you might be using.

I dont compare a simple 10w-40 with poor quality Base stock (Group I or II) to a PAO based 0w-40, i am only talking about a 10w-40 with high quality PAO base stocks. Otherwise it would be comparing apples with Oranges. I dont Ignore the Quality of the Base stocks, i never have done it.

See my Postings Nr. 108, 113, 120, 122 and 138 here in this thread, wich most people simply dont read or understand?

Buying a oil without VII improvers is almost impossible as customer, because such properties are not mentioned by the manufacturers.

 

[ChristianReske]

Simple, basic summary after reading and discussing over 9 Pages:
If you have the choice between a high quality PAO Based 10w-40 and a high quality PAO based 0w-40 for a high reving engine wich shears oil, choose the 0w-40.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Buying a oil without VII improvers is almost impossible as customer, because such properties are not mentioned by the manufacturers.

Bullcrap. As Astro said, you’re being dense on purpose; and to your point please refer to the 20 full pages below of information about where you can find oils with absolutely ZERO VIIs. I’ll save you the legwork since you don’t seem to be able to find it yourself: High Performance Lubricants No VII series oil, available at www.advlubrication.com.

Thread 'High Performance Lubricants No VII series engine oils.'
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...-lubricants-no-vii-series-engine-oils.364074/

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

@ChristianReske Here’s all the product data for your unicorn oils that don’t exist, except that they’re readily available for purchase:

https://www.hplubricants.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/No-VII-Engine-Oil-PDS.pdf

 

[Bjornviken]

@ChristianReske Here’s all the product data for your unicorn oils that don’t exist, except that they’re readily available for purchase:

https://www.hplubricants.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/No-VII-Engine-Oil-PDS.pdf

Do you call Rowe unicorn oil?

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Do you call Rowe unicorn oil?

Don’t know Rowe, but it was sarcasm in regards to the claim that there’s no VII-free oils.

 

[TiGeo]

Bullcrap. As Astro said, you’re being dense on purpose; and to your point please refer to the 20 full pages below of information about where you can find oils with absolutely ZERO VIIs. I’ll save you the legwork since you don’t seem to be able to find it yourself: High Performance Lubricants No VII series oil, available at www.advlubrication.com.

Thread 'High Performance Lubricants No VII series engine oils.'
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...-lubricants-no-vii-series-engine-oils.364074/

You do realize he's in Europe right?

 

[TiGeo]

Bullcrap. As Astro said, you’re being dense on purpose; and to your point please refer to the 20 full pages below of information about where you can find oils with absolutely ZERO VIIs. I’ll save you the legwork since you don’t seem to be able to find it yourself: High Performance Lubricants No VII series oil, available at www.advlubrication.com.

Thread 'High Performance Lubricants No VII series engine oils.'
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...-lubricants-no-vii-series-engine-oils.364074/

Amsoil also makes one. Those are the only two I know of. I would call that "uncommon". Can he even get either where he is? I seem to recall he's in Europe.