What I meant was does anyone see HPL posting UOA spectrographic results as some sort of proof that one oil is better than another or how one oil is “good”. The question was rhetorical.
High performance lubricants oil
- Thread starter mobilnissan1991
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Yup, exactly. They don't, because they know that's not the purpose of UOA's. Can UOA's show their oil can hold up for extended drains? absolutely! That's within the intended utility of the tool. Can it be used to discern valuable difference in performance between various oils? No, and that's a BITOGism that refuses to die and long pre-dates HPL's presence here.
Tear-down testing, which I know Dave has plenty of experience with through his numerous racing, industrial and fleet customers, is where the performance data comes from. This is how one validates performance in wear protection, deposit control...etc. Not UOA's. UOA's are to determine suitability of the lubricant for continued use, where contaminant levels are at, and whether there are any levels that warrant further investigation that might point to an issue with the equipment, like coolant, silicon (air intake tract leak)....etc.
In my case locomotives with "critical water" and in one case 20% fuel in the oil. On a GM SD40, low oil pressure will trip the governor.
My initial UOA was a "smell the dipstick" test when the engine kept dying with the governor button popped every time.
The fix was a new injector (low pressure) fuel line.
But what kind of testing was used to develop the end product for all the necessary performance aspects before it got to the stage of using it in the field to determine if it would do the job well? Same question would apply to Redline, Amsoil, etc. All the oils that go through some kind of formal certification testing and get the certification approval (API/ILSAC/ACEA/dexos) are done through that formal testing process to validate they meet the requirements set forth by those certification standards before they hit the shelves.
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
My understanding is that they start with an approved additive package, which already passes the performance requirements for those aforementioned approvals, and then further refine them with a combination of bench and fleet/field testing.
Go back to post 14
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High Performance Lubricants does have a PDSC, TGA, 4-ball, Teost 33c, and other equipment in their own lab which they could use to run their oils against multiple others. However, that's not really their game to do that. They aren't ones to sling mud at other brands. They use their equipment to find baselines and regularly test and retest to see how the needle moves with each adjustment to a formula.
Ok. So "further refining" invariably involves dosage, which circles it all back to the OP and certificates. Apparently, fleet testing shows that high dosages do not create difficulties with LSPI or emission system integrity...or at least not as much as previously thought.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
A bit of an oversimplification. When you have somebody like Dr. Rudnick on your staff, somebody with decades of experience working formulation, testing, and development, this is somebody who knows what they can tweak in an approved additive package to improve performance further, without causing issues with other aspects of the product's performance. When you aren't constrained by cost, one may be inclined to, besides using better base oils, increase concentrations of certain additives that you know are complimentary or can improve AW performance, within a given targeted area of applicability (the applications this lube is designed for).
So, take the oil I have on-hand, it's based on your typical full-SAPS Euro-style lube. This is when additive packages weren't being manipulated for LSPI compliance, because that wasn't an issue with these "heavy handed" formulations. This was due to the high levels of ZDDP, which is an LSPI mitigator. So, this oil, if you are making formulation changes to it, you know your target audience; what applications this oil is geared toward, so you have a good idea as to what you can manipulate to improve it (again, no budget consciousness being entertained here) where you think it can be improved. Then you can bench test parts of this, and then field test others, to verify.
If the oil in question is one based on an SP/GF-6 style additive package, the approach may be completely different, because with these oils, LSPI mitigation has to be considered as it was when that additive package was developed. Calcium concentration becomes an issue for example. Are you going to increase ZDDP beyond baseline to account for other formulation changes you are making or are you going to keep this at spec level? This will have an impact on what you can change. Also, what are the expectations for this product in the field? Is it going to be used in cars that might use considerable oil where catalyst protection (or GPF protection) may be important?
Now, if you are running one of the HDEO-style additive package oils in a gasser application, with the higher levels of AW additives right out of the gate (like Wayne), that changes things again. If you are doing this in a turbo DI engine (which Wayne is not, it's in a port-injected DOHC FCA mill), which one would assume this oil isn't designed for, nor its foundational additive package tested against, that's a whole other kettle of fish. It's also not really within the scope of Zee's query about how development and materials selection followed by testing progresses.
There's so much further we could go down this rabbit hole too. I suspect that the Euro lubes, at least the full-SAPS ones, could likely be submitted and approved for A40, 502/505, 229.5...etc. There's not much you can do to those formulations to make them non-compliant, you'd have to make the product perform worse, which clearly isn't the goal.
On the other hand, with many of the more recent approvals, when you start getting into SA limits, ZDDP limits...etc, well, some of the changes that improve performance scuttle compliance.
MolaKule
Staff member
None of us here on the BITOG staff has any financial or pecuniary interest in HPL; they are a sponsor which helps BITOG pay its bills.
In my opinion, HPL make high quality lubes, is very approachable and very ethical, based on my half day visit with the principles and a tour of their facilities.
If HPL wants to relate the company's history then it is up to them, but I don't see how it would be relative to this discussion.
Furthermore, those of us who have used their lubricants, have "purchased" lubricants from them so as to not have any undue influence in reporting our results.
So let's try and steer away from any conspiracy theories.
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It's been said multiple times so I'll take everyone's word for it. But, before I was told by those in the know, it was very relevant. If you're being given free oil or money in exchange for talking them up to be the next best thing, that is the definition of a shill, and very unethical unless you let it be known. BUT with that being put to rest, there's no need for me to mention it further.
I totally understand your concern about api certs. I don't think anyone here is pushing others to use the oil, just sharing results.
@wwillson has an interesting thread on their oils cleaning ability, with oil filter media pictures
I always wondered how good of an oil could be made ,if cost was not an issue. HPL seems to be that oil.
I am using their oil in my truck, used almost completely for towing and probably only 3-5 k per year. I plan to do a uoa with a one year oci, and I will post it here on bitog.
The oil I'm using has a high moly content, iirc higher than redline. Higher moly has been noted to be beneficial for the hemi tick.
Now for my DI Mazda, it has cold weather fuel dilution, I won't spend for HPL as I do frequent low mileage oci intervals.
EDIT; I have never received any free oil from HPL, only the bitog15 discount code, that anyone can use.
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For the record whoever travels the farthest to the open house WILL get a case of oil on us.
David
David
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I think you'd have a wonderful time at the weekend Dave has arranged in August!
Some of us here have not yet toured the facility, met the staff, etc. They treat you like family!
Thanks for taking the time to correctly spell that out. After spending a million dollars on our lab to be able to support a Dr Rudnick, having experience with 2 pro categories in the NHRA, Street Outlaws, World of Outlaws, and fleet experience on the street, we get meaningful data to confirm the decisions we have made. As I have mentioned in another thread, working with someone like Les Rudnick is an amazing experience. It would be hard to find a better mentor.
David
I see no reason to doubt the quality of the oils produced by hpl. I don't know if you realize how lucky you are (at least those of you who live in the US) to have companies like hpl that can produce oils with almost no compromise, sure the price may seem expensive to some but hey.
At least you can be sure that the raw materials used in hpl products will be the best as some of the largest base oil producers and almost all the major addco's are all US based (I don't see hpl sourcing from overseas and supply will never be a concern). Add to that the skill, the passion of the people who work there, the lab equipments, a renowned doctor who probably has a few more tricks up his sleeve when it comes to oil recipes and most likely still has very strong connexions to some of the main suppliers.
At least you can be sure that the raw materials used in hpl products will be the best as some of the largest base oil producers and almost all the major addco's are all US based (I don't see hpl sourcing from overseas and supply will never be a concern). Add to that the skill, the passion of the people who work there, the lab equipments, a renowned doctor who probably has a few more tricks up his sleeve when it comes to oil recipes and most likely still has very strong connexions to some of the main suppliers.
When I saw you advertise the open house day I did start looking for a return plane ticket. I quickly realised if I spent £2,500 on a return plane ticket to go see oil being made my Wife would either put me in a looney bin or divorce me.
When I saw you advertise the open house day I did start looking for a return plane ticket. I quickly realised if I spent £2,500 on a return plane ticket to go see oil being made my Wife would either put me in a looney bin or divorce me.
Don't give the reason. Just say it's in the name of science.
High-end motor oil. Using it in my Sportwagen that gets pushed hard - approvals aren't a concern on this car as it's modified and I'm confident that the HPL Euro blend(s) I've been running are doing great to maximize performance and protection. Dave is outstanding to work with.
