High performance lubricants oil

I read "OTL" as "out to lunch" meaning you aren't grasping what's going on or missing the point.

I view certifications as something for people who take things at face value and don't care to dig any deeper. Certifications set minimum standards and often inadvertently cause a ceiling for standards as well. High Performance Lubricants would have to "dumb down" their oils, intentionally hurt their performance, to meet some of this coveted certifications which is not something they're going to do. They formulate for the best performance in the engine, not for marketing labels.

I wrote on this in a previous exchange, but some of the approvals are a double-edged sword. This fosters innovation, in some respects, as oil companies have to work to get around the limits imposed, but sometimes those limits aren't overly applicable to a given situation.

Take our recent discussions about full-SAPS oils being "obsolete" because of the various ESP formulas we see. Porsche A40, LL-01, MB 229.5, VW 502/505...etc are all approvals that applied to this style of lubricant, which had higher levels of AW additives than where the API put us on this side of the pond. The main driver for this was catalyst protection, but I don't recall full-SAPS oils actually resulting in failed cats in service, so... 🤷‍♂️

Some of these oils had some pretty wild pedigree. M1 0w-40 was used in the 24hrs of LeMans for example by numerous teams including Porsche, and by the GM Corvette race program. It was also used in the AMG race program. That's pretty bloody impressive for an OTS lubricant.

Now, the Euro marques are big into the ESP oils and GPF's, which are more sensitive, have been introduced, and that's one of the drivers behind these formulas. The same on the diesel front with DPF's. As emissions systems become more complex, protecting them from oil constituents, in the event somebody has a "burner" has come to the fore. This limits certain types of additives and concentrations and this also has a reverberation affect, as it ties into LSPI, where some of these components that have been reduced, were effective at mitigating LSPI, so then calcium needs to be scaled back to compensate, otherwise you end up with a formula that may promote LSPI, and then it gets replaced by something else that is perhaps less effective.

So, you have this clutch of compromises that have to be made to comply with regulation, and this regulation may be at odds with some of the other goals of your product, such as wear protection. This is where alternative compounds come into play, to aide the formula in achieving acceptable performance in those areas while still meeting the criteria to comply with regulation.

An example of where the goals of the product clash with the rules of the API, would be with the reduction in allowable levels of phosphorous, which limited ZDDP. We saw oils that this limit applied to, like Castrol GC 0w-30, stick with API SL, rather than going up to SM. There were other OE products that completely avoided or abandoned the API approvals altogether, like the BMW 5w-30 for example. For the Euro lubes, the API approvals aren't important anyway, as ACEA is what they use as their foundational platform, so it wasn't a big deal. Blenders dealing with the North American market however, didn't have that flexibility on many of the grades.

So, as @RDY4WAR noted, while the API does indeed set a floor for the oils sold for the North American market (and that's a good thing!) it also sets a ceiling in many respects, because the goal isn't just product performance in terms of what's mandated for protection, durability...etc, but also limits are placed on components to ensure emissions systems protection under typical operation, which may include significant oil consumption.

Of course, oil manufacturers are also blending to a price point and to make money and two oils that both have the same API approval, well, that's a bar set pretty low, relatively speaking, in many respects. One oil can perform markedly better than another there. That's why the OE approvals, particularly the Euro ones, raise the bar by capping Noack and mandating a level of performance in demanding engine tests.

The old Mobil slides show this quite well:
Exxon Mobil technical_Page_18.jpg


And even relative to their own products:
Exxon Mobil technical_Page_14.jpg

Exxon Mobil technical_Page_36.jpg
 
I just checked over your posts and can't see one that needs a reply. Is there something I need to reply to?

Edit:
You posted about Rudnick. I also read that you were a stickler for certifications and approvals but were put at ease after talking to HPL. The price isn't bad for you.

I'm happy for you. I don't know if you want a retort or not. If you like it use it.
Was just looking for acknowledgement that a line of thinking can be established that puts one at ease over the lack of formal approval, because an approved formulation was used as the foundation.
 
First, this board tends to be reticent about, say a 0W20 oil with, say Porsche certifications.

Secondly, there are recorded instances of failures while using certified oils.

Third, since this is BITOG, let's differentiate between some scrub motor oil and HPL, both of which have no certs.

C'mon now, this is not merely "the great unknown."

Do your homework.
 
First, this board tends to be reticent about, say a 0W20 oil with, say Porsche certifications.

Secondly, there are recorded instances of failures while using certified oils.

Third, since this is BITOG, let's differentiate between some scrub motor oil and HPL, both of which have no certs.

C'mon now, this is not merely "the great unknown."

Do your homework.
Reticent? Physics matters and MOFT is real.

Material or design defects are never corrected by any oil.

Scrub oil? Is Mobil 1 or Castrol 0W-40 a scrub oil? Is Porsche A40 or BMW Longlife-01 approval a scrub approval?

C'mon man, do your homework.
 
First, this board tends to be reticent about, say a 0W20 oil with, say Porsche certifications.

Secondly, there are recorded instances of failures while using certified oils.

Third, since this is BITOG, let's differentiate between some scrub motor oil and HPL, both of which have no certs.

C'mon now, this is not merely "the great unknown."

Do your homework.

Check back and see if I ever said HPL, or Amsoil even, was bad. Your rebuttal doesn't change the criteria I have, which is based on fact. Does it have the proper API certification that I require? I actually also only use Dexos oils on all but one vehicle, but API is the minimum, then Dexos.

Is it wrong for me to want API or Dexos rated oil? Do I need the extra most bestest oil made outside those parameters? I understand that API establishes a floor and a ceiling. That's the EXACT oil I want. One within the set parameters.

Once again, USE WHATEVER YOU WANT! I won't use it. My unwillingness to use your oil is not a personal attack. It doesn't fit my criteria.
 
Reticent? Physics matters and MOFT is real.

Material or design defects are never corrected by any oil.

Scrub oil? Is Mobil 1 or Castrol 0W-40 a scrub oil? Is Porsche A40 or BMW Longlife-01 approval a scrub approval?

C'mon man, do your homework.

I have done a whole lot of homework.
This is combined with a whole lot of personal consumer field study.
Can I have a gold star ?
 
What about taking a racing oil, intended for something like a Factory Stock shootout, and running it 10,000 miles on the street? If their racing oils, that aren't meant for long drains whatsoever, can go 10,000 miles and still have >2.5 TBN and only 9 ppm iron... well, you can imagine how their street oils perform.

This is their BAS racing oil line. ALS put "unidentified" by the oil brand because they claimed to not have it in their system despite me sending samples of their oils to them many times.

01-26-2022 - HPL Bad Ass Racing 0W-20, 10,351 miles.jpg
 
Check back and see if I ever said HPL, or Amsoil even, was bad. Your rebuttal doesn't change the criteria I have, which is based on fact. Does it have the proper API certification that I require? I actually also only use Dexos oils on all but one vehicle, but API is the minimum, then Dexos.

Is it wrong for me to want API or Dexos rated oil? Do I need the extra most bestest oil made outside those parameters? I understand that API establishes a floor and a ceiling. That's the EXACT oil I want. One within the set parameters.

Once again, USE WHATEVER YOU WANT! I won't use it. My unwillingness to use your oil is not a personal attack. It doesn't fit my criteria.

Come to Manteno !

If you are an MD with a Cessna, David Ward has a landing strip for you.

Let's all have a group hug.
 
"I've always done it that way, and nothing has gone wrong for me, so I must know what I am doing and my advice should be respected."

Got it.

I have had my Red Line 20W50 and VWB 5W30 phases.

Some of this stuff is dependent on application and driving conditions.

And of course Tribology has evolved, devolved and evolved...

To say nothing about engines...
 
I don't think the methods you used are generally accepted as appropriate tests for determining engine wear, but sure.


I lean towards motor tear downs with parts weighed and measured to extremely exacting standards vs those same parts brand new and measured and weighed to the same extremely exact standard.
 
I view certifications as something for people who take things at face value and don't care to dig any deeper. Certifications set minimum standards and often inadvertently cause a ceiling for standards as well. High Performance Lubricants would have to "dumb down" their oils, intentionally hurt their performance, to meet some of this coveted certifications which is not something they're going to do. They formulate for the best performance in the engine, not for marketing labels.
What ceilings are set by the certifications that would need to be broken to make the oil better?
 
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