Thanks for jumping in. Dave mentioned that in an earlier post.
High Performance Lubricants No VII series engine oils.
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Should one assume from this that 0W-X oils cannot be produces without VIIs?
Read the whole thread, it’s full of additional info.
D
Deleted member 89374
They can, however the results aren't up to the standards of @High Performance Lubricants. This company holds itself to very high standards.
That being said, HPL 0W-XX motor oils use very little VII, just as much as needed, as they are formulated to perfection. If you need 0W-XX motor oil, you can use theirs with confidence. That's why you also don't see 0W Group III motor oils from HPL, because they don't like to use PPDs. Group III by itself is very good base oil, however it hits a wall when going down in temperature. Instead of using PPDs, which have a tendency to degrade in service, HPL just blends their 0W oils with PAO.
I skimmed it and didn't catch anything useful. It seems to me that anything with a low 0W-20 spread should be achievable without VIIs. That being said, if they cannot make a 0W-16 without VIIs then I need some serious education.
The goal with these was to make a lower volatility No VII group of products. It can be done but it would require lighter base oil. We have already addressed this in 2 other PCMP series of oils we have. The good news is there are a lot of choices.
David
David
Nice HTHS viscosity. Now people who's vehicle OM and oil fill cap recommends 5W-30 can go down a grade and say their living on the edge by using a 5W-20.
Maybe I missed it, but are you going to have any Noack specs on these no VII products?
I think @High Performance Lubricants just blew all the thinnies’ minds by turning their 5w20 into a 5w30. Or did they make the 5w30 a 5w20 without fuel dilution or mechanical shearing? Is this now the first trans oil that can be used in an engine?Nice HTHS viscosity. Now people who's vehicle OM and oil fill cap recommends 5W-30 can go down a grade and say their living on the edge by using a 5W-20.
I jest, but this is going to be a great oil for many people.
OVERKILL
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This is a @Shannow 5W-20, lol.I think @High Performance Lubricants just blew all the thinnies’ minds by turning their 5w20 into a 5w30. Or did they make the 5w30 a 5w20 without fuel dilution or mechanical shearing? Is this now the first trans oil that can be used in an engine?
I jest, but this is going to be a great oil for many people.
No. I am not going to run Noack on these. The majority of these are PAO based and I have minimized using thin oils to the extent possible. We have a good track record in the consumption department by making good choices. These will be as good or better.
David
D
Deleted member 89374
What's the NOACK number you'd like to see?
Unfortunately NOACK isn't everything when it comes to a finished product. I ran Red Line 5W-30 (advertised NOACK of 6%) in a 3.3L GDI engine. I ran it for 6800 miles. Towards the end of the OCI it started consuming oil and it was pretty badly oxidized. I don't have the patience to do UOAs, and since I wasn't planning on running Red Line again, I didn't take a sample. However, the moral of the story is that the advertised low NOACK of Red Line didn't help me at all. And this isn't a vehicle I short tripped either. I drive it with a decently heavy foot, so fuel dilution was at a bare minimum. Apparently that 6% NOACK didn't hold for the entirety of the OCI, as I was planning to go 7500~8000 miles. However, I lost nearly a quart of oil. When that happens with expensive motor oil, I don't care to use it again.
Currently, I'm running six quarts of Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 and a quart of HPL EC30 in the 3.3L GDI. So far, so good.
The quality of the finished product is everything.
Also, given that 3rd party labs can easily perform a NOACK test, for a fee, I'm confident that Mr. Ward is not withholding this data, but rather believes that it's not of major importance in the context of HPL's blending efforts and their use of high quality materials. Conclusively, any customer that purchases HPL products can have the oil analized.
How did you know it was oxidized?
Interesting Rod Knock.
David knows how I roll.
Run light.
Run clean.
Unabashed
High Performance Lubricants
Fanboy here.
Another substantiating UOA coming up.
David knows how I roll.
Run light.
Run clean.
Unabashed
High Performance Lubricants
Fanboy here.
Another substantiating UOA coming up.
D
Deleted member 89374
It thickened and was dark brown. Since I don't short trip this vehicle and drive it pretty healthy, I get a minimal amount of soot in the oil. I ran Mobil 1 FS 0W-40, Castrol EDGE 0W-40, and QS Euro 5W-40 in this engine for similar or longer OCIs, and none of them looked as bad as RL 5W-30 after *only* 6800 miles. Thick, very dark, and smelly. It also left oxidation residue on the oil filler cap. Interestingly enough, I was able to wipe it off without too much effort. Had it not been for the high oil consumption, I wouldn't have said anything about RL 5W-30. But that kinda bothered me. An oil with such low NOACK should stay in the pan.
I don't think those are scientifically valid methods of determining oxidation.
D
Deleted member 89374
I know scientifically that Red Line starts out with a pretty healthy amount of oxidation, and then oxidizes even further in service. And it does so pretty fast. For Red Line it's a feature, not a bug. It's how this oil works. I got nothing against it, other than the sudden consumption that bothered me, in an otherwise healthy engine.
I was using this as a counter example as to why NOACK can't be used as a determining factor to judge the quality of any motor oil.
RL's high oxidation numbers, when new, are not due to actual oxidation. They are due to its ester content and FTIR analysis tends to reflect that in an arguably inaccurate manner.
I have seen zero evidence that RL oxidizes abnormally fast. Similarly, I do not see how this has anything to do with NOACK.
The high virgin oxidation number is due to significant ester in the blend. Oils that are inherently shear stable will only usually go up in viscosity. I don't think Red Line is a great extended drain oil. I never have. It appears to be best suited for racing applications. Although there are some good longer drain UOAs with it, but they're rare.
I'd like to see how their Euro formulations hold up using a different additive chemistry paired with their standard base oil blend.
I'd like to see how their Euro formulations hold up using a different additive chemistry paired with their standard base oil blend.
D
Deleted member 89374
How do you know? Do you poses intimate knowledge of how Red Line is formulated?
That's not accurate. The amount of ester content cannot be determined by the virgin oxidation number, if that's what you're referring to. Maybe @MolaKule could chime in on this.
I know you don't. It's okay.
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