High Moly oil and fuel effeciency
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Anytime you add a lot of anti-friction additive to an engine you are going to decrease wear and gain slight mpgs. Less friction = greater mpgs. Thats the point behind 0w20 oils and low drag ring packs.
But its only effective up to a point...
But its only effective up to a point...
Originally Posted By: lockguy
What are the best moly oils for the buck?
The first one that comes to mind is the Mazda Genuine 0W-20. Schaeffer's uses a boatload of Moly in their oils. Many of the OTS syns uses some Moly, with the exception of Valvoline who uses none. Pennzoil conventional seems to use a good deal of Moly still, according to the latest PQIA VOA.
What are the best moly oils for the buck?
The first one that comes to mind is the Mazda Genuine 0W-20. Schaeffer's uses a boatload of Moly in their oils. Many of the OTS syns uses some Moly, with the exception of Valvoline who uses none. Pennzoil conventional seems to use a good deal of Moly still, according to the latest PQIA VOA.
Originally Posted By: threeputtpar
The first one that comes to mind is the Mazda Genuine 0W-20. Schaeffer's uses a boatload of Moly in their oils. Many of the OTS syns uses some Moly, with the exception of Valvoline who uses none. Pennzoil conventional seems to use a good deal of Moly still, according to the latest PQIA VOA.
The Pennzoil conventional uses a couple hundred ppm of moly, while their synthetics use around 100 ppm or less. For this reason, many speculate that Shell is using different types of moly in these two oils.
So for the OP, it's hard to guess at potential fuel savings by looking at the concentration of moly. Additionally, organic additives are often used that don't appear on a virgin oil analysis.
The first one that comes to mind is the Mazda Genuine 0W-20. Schaeffer's uses a boatload of Moly in their oils. Many of the OTS syns uses some Moly, with the exception of Valvoline who uses none. Pennzoil conventional seems to use a good deal of Moly still, according to the latest PQIA VOA.
The Pennzoil conventional uses a couple hundred ppm of moly, while their synthetics use around 100 ppm or less. For this reason, many speculate that Shell is using different types of moly in these two oils.
So for the OP, it's hard to guess at potential fuel savings by looking at the concentration of moly. Additionally, organic additives are often used that don't appear on a virgin oil analysis.
Theory? It's well beyond theory at this point.
Now first off there are different kinds of moly. There is mos2 which is a solid lubricant. Then there is the organic moly such as the stuff found in Pennzoil Conventional then there is tri-nuclear stuff that I think Mobil has in their line up.
And these different kinds of moly do different things although in general they are friction modifiers.
From experience mos2 when added to oil gets dispersed throughout the engine. Anywhere there is a moving part like cams and pushrods the moly is forced in to the microscopic hills and valleys of the metal contact points. So once these contact points are filled then basically the moly coated contact point touches the other moly coated contact point. At this point the metal is covered and no longer touching,which is when wear between these surfaces is almost eliminated,and this is also the reason that some uoa will show much lower wear metals,because the metal isn't touching. This "plating" effect lowers the resistance as well,which now means the engine spins with less resistance.
Another added benefit of mos2 is when the engine is cold the moly "plated" surfaces rub,instead of bare metal,and the moly becomes sacrificial because as the cold engine spins it will rub and wear the moly "plate" off.
Now we are all aware that the oil at start up is too thick and not optimal so the moly lessens wear at this critical point,until the oil is up to operating temp at which point the oil starts doing what it's supposed to do.
So at start up the moly "plating" gets worn off however once the oil is hot again it "plates" these contact points again and over time it adds layer after layer after layer.
Now this sounds great right,all these layers reducing metal wear but it's a double edged sword. If the moly is capable of layering on metal,then it's also capable of leaving deposits behind and the possibility exists that it could contribute to the oil control rings getting "coked" up,as well as potentially leaving behind deposits elsewhere,since in effect that's what it's doing to eliminate wear in the first place.
However mos2 has been shown to primarily only layer when under pressure so in essence the moly wont plate unless its forced to,and moly just sitting for example in an oil galley with not plate the galley,but its my understanding that the potential still exists.
This is where the whole "balanced formulation" gains some traction because although moly is wonderful,too much could be harmful. And considering mos2 is actually a solid that's been pulverized into particles small enough to not get trapped by the oil filter it is still a solid and that needs to be considered.
So all you guys using mos2(myself included) don't overdose.
Good news is that once the mos2 has plated the internals you no longer need an entire can to still achieve a reduction in friction. A smaller maintenance dose is all you need to still get the friction reduction and fuel consumption benefit.
I've been using it for years and I kept a fuel consumption log so I could learn just how much you really need and I concluded that a whole can every oil change doesn't increase mileage any more than a half a can once the first treatment is complete.
Now I'm not as familiar with the organic moly like the kind found in Pennzoil Conventional however I do know that it works in a similar manner but doesn't have as pronounced a layering effect as mos2 does,and the organic variety also needs a fairly high dose to be effective.
Now for the tri-nuclear stuff. I have very limited info on this stuff. What I am sure of is that only a fraction of it is required in comparison to the organic variety,it will not contribute to any form of deposit or ring coking and only Mobil has got it.
And from my research I've learned that Mobil doesn't use it in every one of their oils. I know the afe flavor has it,the 0w-40 has it and their racing oils have it. Most every flavor of Mobil has moly but not all of it is this tri-nuke kind. Telltale sign that the oil has the 3-nuke variety is the voa won't have much of it in the oil,whereas the organic flavor will have quite a bit more as shown in the voa.
Some oil companies have adopted titanium in place of zddp. Both compounds work in a similar manner since they leave an anti-wear layer,but the titanium won't poison the cats in the same manner as phosphorus.
K. So if some experts out there see any errors in my explanation please if possible point them out so I can have my facts in order.
Thank you
Now first off there are different kinds of moly. There is mos2 which is a solid lubricant. Then there is the organic moly such as the stuff found in Pennzoil Conventional then there is tri-nuclear stuff that I think Mobil has in their line up.
And these different kinds of moly do different things although in general they are friction modifiers.
From experience mos2 when added to oil gets dispersed throughout the engine. Anywhere there is a moving part like cams and pushrods the moly is forced in to the microscopic hills and valleys of the metal contact points. So once these contact points are filled then basically the moly coated contact point touches the other moly coated contact point. At this point the metal is covered and no longer touching,which is when wear between these surfaces is almost eliminated,and this is also the reason that some uoa will show much lower wear metals,because the metal isn't touching. This "plating" effect lowers the resistance as well,which now means the engine spins with less resistance.
Another added benefit of mos2 is when the engine is cold the moly "plated" surfaces rub,instead of bare metal,and the moly becomes sacrificial because as the cold engine spins it will rub and wear the moly "plate" off.
Now we are all aware that the oil at start up is too thick and not optimal so the moly lessens wear at this critical point,until the oil is up to operating temp at which point the oil starts doing what it's supposed to do.
So at start up the moly "plating" gets worn off however once the oil is hot again it "plates" these contact points again and over time it adds layer after layer after layer.
Now this sounds great right,all these layers reducing metal wear but it's a double edged sword. If the moly is capable of layering on metal,then it's also capable of leaving deposits behind and the possibility exists that it could contribute to the oil control rings getting "coked" up,as well as potentially leaving behind deposits elsewhere,since in effect that's what it's doing to eliminate wear in the first place.
However mos2 has been shown to primarily only layer when under pressure so in essence the moly wont plate unless its forced to,and moly just sitting for example in an oil galley with not plate the galley,but its my understanding that the potential still exists.
This is where the whole "balanced formulation" gains some traction because although moly is wonderful,too much could be harmful. And considering mos2 is actually a solid that's been pulverized into particles small enough to not get trapped by the oil filter it is still a solid and that needs to be considered.
So all you guys using mos2(myself included) don't overdose.
Good news is that once the mos2 has plated the internals you no longer need an entire can to still achieve a reduction in friction. A smaller maintenance dose is all you need to still get the friction reduction and fuel consumption benefit.
I've been using it for years and I kept a fuel consumption log so I could learn just how much you really need and I concluded that a whole can every oil change doesn't increase mileage any more than a half a can once the first treatment is complete.
Now I'm not as familiar with the organic moly like the kind found in Pennzoil Conventional however I do know that it works in a similar manner but doesn't have as pronounced a layering effect as mos2 does,and the organic variety also needs a fairly high dose to be effective.
Now for the tri-nuclear stuff. I have very limited info on this stuff. What I am sure of is that only a fraction of it is required in comparison to the organic variety,it will not contribute to any form of deposit or ring coking and only Mobil has got it.
And from my research I've learned that Mobil doesn't use it in every one of their oils. I know the afe flavor has it,the 0w-40 has it and their racing oils have it. Most every flavor of Mobil has moly but not all of it is this tri-nuke kind. Telltale sign that the oil has the 3-nuke variety is the voa won't have much of it in the oil,whereas the organic flavor will have quite a bit more as shown in the voa.
Some oil companies have adopted titanium in place of zddp. Both compounds work in a similar manner since they leave an anti-wear layer,but the titanium won't poison the cats in the same manner as phosphorus.
K. So if some experts out there see any errors in my explanation please if possible point them out so I can have my facts in order.
Thank you
AFE is "advanced fuel economy."
Clevy, do you know if the Mobil 1 Extended Performance series has the tri-nuclear version of moly?
Clevy, do you know if the Mobil 1 Extended Performance series has the tri-nuclear version of moly?
Good explanation x 2.
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
Anytime you add a lot of anti-friction additive to an engine you are going to decrease wear and gain slight mpgs
Moly in the form of MoDTC or as a colloid (a suspended powder in a liquid) is primarily a fricton reducer. There are other friction reducer chemical compounds and moly is not the only one. Any friction reducer for engine oil will increase mpg slightly. GMO and the oleates constitute another type of friction reducer and are often used together with MoDTC.
There are also anti-wear additives such as ZDDP, Antimony DTC and other organic compounds such as the dibutyl dithiocarbamates.
Each these additive compounds works in a different regime of the Stribeck curve.
http://www.stle.org/resources/lubelearn/lubrication/
For racing you need to get the most friction reduction possible.
Anytime you add a lot of anti-friction additive to an engine you are going to decrease wear and gain slight mpgs
Moly in the form of MoDTC or as a colloid (a suspended powder in a liquid) is primarily a fricton reducer. There are other friction reducer chemical compounds and moly is not the only one. Any friction reducer for engine oil will increase mpg slightly. GMO and the oleates constitute another type of friction reducer and are often used together with MoDTC.
There are also anti-wear additives such as ZDDP, Antimony DTC and other organic compounds such as the dibutyl dithiocarbamates.
Each these additive compounds works in a different regime of the Stribeck curve.
http://www.stle.org/resources/lubelearn/lubrication/
For racing you need to get the most friction reduction possible.
Originally Posted By: john_pifer
AFE is "advanced fuel economy."
Clevy, do you know if the Mobil 1 Extended Performance series has the tri-nuclear version of moly?
I cannot say with any concrete certainty that it is.
However one can assume since the AFE line is on Mobil's top shelf and is formulated with (assuming) pao to aid in achieving the low temp pour point and the oil itself is advertised focusing on its fuel economy benefits one can assume it could be.
Another telltale sign is looking at the voa if the moly count is under 100ppm that would lead me to believe it is the tri-nuclear variety based on the fact that other oils that use the organic type tend to have levels of molybdenum in the multiple hundred ppm.
Again,guys I am strictly making semi educated guesses here.
I am very sure the Mobil 1 0w-40 is using the tri-nuclear type and if I remember correctly the voa shows a moly number at 88.
Considering that Pennzoil conventional has around 300ppm moly and red lines moly level is off the charts one can deduce that they are using the organic type.
Zddp is a funny compound. It needs heat and the combustion bi-products to really activate. Once it's hot enough the zddp gets all mixed up then once the engine is turned off and cools the zddp leaves a hard glass like surface behind. Which is why it's good for flat tappet cams. That layer is extremely hard and it protects the cam at start up from the pushrods that is being levered into it by a spring. And once you consider all that pressure is being levered onto the pushrods tips which might be 1/4 square centimeter you realize that is an insane amount of pressure on a tiny little area.
Once the oil is up to operating temp the oil creates the barrier,and helps that tip slide on the flat surface of the cam.
Experts.
I hope I got this right. If there are any errors or discrepancies then please point them out to me. I don't want to put incorrect info for others to read and then assume that it's correct.
That and I want to know for my own benefit. I am a student at the college of bitogery. This is my sophomore year and I'd like the seniors to see I'm not just some troller,casting for carp.
AFE is "advanced fuel economy."
Clevy, do you know if the Mobil 1 Extended Performance series has the tri-nuclear version of moly?
I cannot say with any concrete certainty that it is.
However one can assume since the AFE line is on Mobil's top shelf and is formulated with (assuming) pao to aid in achieving the low temp pour point and the oil itself is advertised focusing on its fuel economy benefits one can assume it could be.
Another telltale sign is looking at the voa if the moly count is under 100ppm that would lead me to believe it is the tri-nuclear variety based on the fact that other oils that use the organic type tend to have levels of molybdenum in the multiple hundred ppm.
Again,guys I am strictly making semi educated guesses here.
I am very sure the Mobil 1 0w-40 is using the tri-nuclear type and if I remember correctly the voa shows a moly number at 88.
Considering that Pennzoil conventional has around 300ppm moly and red lines moly level is off the charts one can deduce that they are using the organic type.
Zddp is a funny compound. It needs heat and the combustion bi-products to really activate. Once it's hot enough the zddp gets all mixed up then once the engine is turned off and cools the zddp leaves a hard glass like surface behind. Which is why it's good for flat tappet cams. That layer is extremely hard and it protects the cam at start up from the pushrods that is being levered into it by a spring. And once you consider all that pressure is being levered onto the pushrods tips which might be 1/4 square centimeter you realize that is an insane amount of pressure on a tiny little area.
Once the oil is up to operating temp the oil creates the barrier,and helps that tip slide on the flat surface of the cam.
Experts.
I hope I got this right. If there are any errors or discrepancies then please point them out to me. I don't want to put incorrect info for others to read and then assume that it's correct.
That and I want to know for my own benefit. I am a student at the college of bitogery. This is my sophomore year and I'd like the seniors to see I'm not just some troller,casting for carp.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Another telltale sign is looking at the voa if the moly count is under 100ppm that would lead me to believe it is the tri-nuclear variety based on the fact that other oils that use the organic type tend to have levels of molybdenum in the multiple hundred ppm.
That may or may not be reliable. You said earlier that only ExxonMobil has the tri-nuclear moly. It may be more accurate to say that only Infineum has the tri-nuclear moly, if even that is correct. As I understand, Infineum is owned by both ExxonMobil and by Shell, so both companies would ostensibly be using this techology.
Pennzoil conventional has a few hundred ppm of moly, while Pennzoil's synthetic oils usually have fewer than one hundred ppm of moly. One might assume that the Pennzoil synthetics are using the tri-nuclear moly, but you really can't use a single number to predict that. Many believe that the OEM Japanese went to a different form of moly when their oils moved from 700-900 ppm of moly down to 100-200 ppm of moly. Is the new formula using the new tri-nuclear moly, even though its concentration may be as much as 200 ppm?
I don't know, and I suspect that nobody here knows for sure. It's fun to guess at it, but there are few reliable conclusions to draw from a VOA concentration in my opinion.
Another telltale sign is looking at the voa if the moly count is under 100ppm that would lead me to believe it is the tri-nuclear variety based on the fact that other oils that use the organic type tend to have levels of molybdenum in the multiple hundred ppm.
That may or may not be reliable. You said earlier that only ExxonMobil has the tri-nuclear moly. It may be more accurate to say that only Infineum has the tri-nuclear moly, if even that is correct. As I understand, Infineum is owned by both ExxonMobil and by Shell, so both companies would ostensibly be using this techology.
Pennzoil conventional has a few hundred ppm of moly, while Pennzoil's synthetic oils usually have fewer than one hundred ppm of moly. One might assume that the Pennzoil synthetics are using the tri-nuclear moly, but you really can't use a single number to predict that. Many believe that the OEM Japanese went to a different form of moly when their oils moved from 700-900 ppm of moly down to 100-200 ppm of moly. Is the new formula using the new tri-nuclear moly, even though its concentration may be as much as 200 ppm?
I don't know, and I suspect that nobody here knows for sure. It's fun to guess at it, but there are few reliable conclusions to draw from a VOA concentration in my opinion.
Ive been using tropartic 5w30, and motorcraft when I go to the dealer (same I know). anyone know moly type in that oil?
I may have to switch to Mobil 1 or pp and go longer oci. I put tons of miles on my service vehicles (5k/month). the fuel savings and extended oci may actually pay for the extra 10 bucks for the more expensive oil.
I may have to switch to Mobil 1 or pp and go longer oci. I put tons of miles on my service vehicles (5k/month). the fuel savings and extended oci may actually pay for the extra 10 bucks for the more expensive oil.
Originally Posted By: lockguy
I was reading another thread and there seems to be a theory out there that high moly oil is better for fuel efficiency. Any thoughts on that?
What are the best moly oils for the buck?
Engine oils such as Schaeffers HAVE been proven to increase fuel economy 1% to 1 1/2 %, some will claim a greater increase.
I was reading another thread and there seems to be a theory out there that high moly oil is better for fuel efficiency. Any thoughts on that?
What are the best moly oils for the buck?
Engine oils such as Schaeffers HAVE been proven to increase fuel economy 1% to 1 1/2 %, some will claim a greater increase.
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
Zddp is a funny compound. It needs heat and the combustion bi-products to really activate. Once it's hot enough the zddp gets all mixed up then once the engine is turned off and cools the zddp leaves a hard glass like surface behind. Which is why it's good for flat tappet cams.
ZDDP forms a plastic film that prevent wear.
Please Clevy, leave some spaces between your sentences.
All of the soluble moly's are (not the colloids) are Molybdenum dithiocarbaates (MoDTC's) and are considered to be organo-metallic friction reducers.
There are many flavors of MoDTC's with the tri-nuclear moly being only one of them.
Zddp is a funny compound. It needs heat and the combustion bi-products to really activate. Once it's hot enough the zddp gets all mixed up then once the engine is turned off and cools the zddp leaves a hard glass like surface behind. Which is why it's good for flat tappet cams.
ZDDP forms a plastic film that prevent wear.
Please Clevy, leave some spaces between your sentences.
All of the soluble moly's are (not the colloids) are Molybdenum dithiocarbaates (MoDTC's) and are considered to be organo-metallic friction reducers.
There are many flavors of MoDTC's with the tri-nuclear moly being only one of them.
Originally Posted By: salesrep
Originally Posted By: lockguy
I was reading another thread and there seems to be a theory out there that high moly oil is better for fuel efficiency. Any thoughts on that?
What are the best moly oils for the buck?
Engine oils such as Schaeffers HAVE been proven to increase fuel economy 1% to 1 1/2 %, some will claim a greater increase.
I would like to use an oil like that but Im not sure its cost effective which kind of defeats the purpose.
If im going cheap, its tropartic, if i go high end, its pp, Quaker State Ultimate Durability, mobil 1 etc. Just gotta figure out which one. There will be no amsoil, royal purple, schaffer etc...just too expensive for marginal benefit over cheaper oil.
Originally Posted By: lockguy
I was reading another thread and there seems to be a theory out there that high moly oil is better for fuel efficiency. Any thoughts on that?
What are the best moly oils for the buck?
Engine oils such as Schaeffers HAVE been proven to increase fuel economy 1% to 1 1/2 %, some will claim a greater increase.
I would like to use an oil like that but Im not sure its cost effective which kind of defeats the purpose.
If im going cheap, its tropartic, if i go high end, its pp, Quaker State Ultimate Durability, mobil 1 etc. Just gotta figure out which one. There will be no amsoil, royal purple, schaffer etc...just too expensive for marginal benefit over cheaper oil.
I recently stepped from PP to Pennzoil Conventional in the Corolla. No measurable difference in fuel economy so far. So at least in warmer weather the 'synthetic' element plays zero benefit for my uses.
Colder temps is another story.
Colder temps is another story.
Originally Posted By: lockguy
Originally Posted By: salesrep
Originally Posted By: lockguy
I was reading another thread and there seems to be a theory out there that high moly oil is better for fuel efficiency. Any thoughts on that?
What are the best moly oils for the buck?
Engine oils such as Schaeffers HAVE been proven to increase fuel economy 1% to 1 1/2 %, some will claim a greater increase.
I would like to use an oil like that but Im not sure its cost effective which kind of defeats the purpose.
If im going cheap, its tropartic, if i go high end, its pp, Quaker State Ultimate Durability, mobil 1 etc. Just gotta figure out which one. There will be no amsoil, royal purple, schaffer etc...just too expensive for marginal benefit over cheaper oil.
If you want to maximize fuel economy forget those oils and go with Mazda High Moly 0W-20 (221 VI) followed closely by the TGMO 0W-20 (216 VI). Both these oils would be suitable for your Fit.
The high VI probably has the biggest affect in contributing to fuel economy.
For the Ford that spec's a 5W-20 I'd stick to these two oils but substitute a quart of Mobil 1 0W-40 to raise the HTHSV a bit.
Originally Posted By: salesrep
Originally Posted By: lockguy
I was reading another thread and there seems to be a theory out there that high moly oil is better for fuel efficiency. Any thoughts on that?
What are the best moly oils for the buck?
Engine oils such as Schaeffers HAVE been proven to increase fuel economy 1% to 1 1/2 %, some will claim a greater increase.
I would like to use an oil like that but Im not sure its cost effective which kind of defeats the purpose.
If im going cheap, its tropartic, if i go high end, its pp, Quaker State Ultimate Durability, mobil 1 etc. Just gotta figure out which one. There will be no amsoil, royal purple, schaffer etc...just too expensive for marginal benefit over cheaper oil.
If you want to maximize fuel economy forget those oils and go with Mazda High Moly 0W-20 (221 VI) followed closely by the TGMO 0W-20 (216 VI). Both these oils would be suitable for your Fit.
The high VI probably has the biggest affect in contributing to fuel economy.
For the Ford that spec's a 5W-20 I'd stick to these two oils but substitute a quart of Mobil 1 0W-40 to raise the HTHSV a bit.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: lockguy
Originally Posted By: salesrep
Originally Posted By: lockguy
I was reading another thread and there seems to be a theory out there that high moly oil is better for fuel efficiency. Any thoughts on that?
What are the best moly oils for the buck?
Engine oils such as Schaeffers HAVE been proven to increase fuel economy 1% to 1 1/2 %, some will claim a greater increase.
I would like to use an oil like that but Im not sure its cost effective which kind of defeats the purpose.
If im going cheap, its tropartic, if i go high end, its pp, Quaker State Ultimate Durability, mobil 1 etc. Just gotta figure out which one. There will be no amsoil, royal purple, schaffer etc...just too expensive for marginal benefit over cheaper oil.
If you want to maximize fuel economy forget those oils and go with Mazda High Moly 0W-20 (221 VI) followed closely by the TGMO 0W-20 (216 VI). Both these oils would be suitable for your Fit.
The high VI probably has the biggest affect in contributing to fuel economy.
For the Ford that spec's a 5W-20 I'd stick to these two oils but substitute a quart of Mobil 1 0W-40 to raise the HTHSV a bit.
I guess im ignorant, hthsv? and 0w-40 would be a higher viscosity contributing to higher "oil drag" would it not? its very possible im just confused, feel free to straighten me out...
Originally Posted By: lockguy
Originally Posted By: salesrep
Originally Posted By: lockguy
I was reading another thread and there seems to be a theory out there that high moly oil is better for fuel efficiency. Any thoughts on that?
What are the best moly oils for the buck?
Engine oils such as Schaeffers HAVE been proven to increase fuel economy 1% to 1 1/2 %, some will claim a greater increase.
I would like to use an oil like that but Im not sure its cost effective which kind of defeats the purpose.
If im going cheap, its tropartic, if i go high end, its pp, Quaker State Ultimate Durability, mobil 1 etc. Just gotta figure out which one. There will be no amsoil, royal purple, schaffer etc...just too expensive for marginal benefit over cheaper oil.
If you want to maximize fuel economy forget those oils and go with Mazda High Moly 0W-20 (221 VI) followed closely by the TGMO 0W-20 (216 VI). Both these oils would be suitable for your Fit.
The high VI probably has the biggest affect in contributing to fuel economy.
For the Ford that spec's a 5W-20 I'd stick to these two oils but substitute a quart of Mobil 1 0W-40 to raise the HTHSV a bit.
I guess im ignorant, hthsv? and 0w-40 would be a higher viscosity contributing to higher "oil drag" would it not? its very possible im just confused, feel free to straighten me out...
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