High End Classic Car Contracts - is this how the big guys do business?

If it's that awesome and valuable, I'd definitely put it on Bring A Trailer. Screw those "I'll only buy it if nobody else knows about it" people. No way. Maybe I don't understand rich people stuff, but base model 1980 F-Series and K10s with 4WD have sold for nearly* six figures on BAT. I'd tell them get out of here with that secret club BS and give me the most money if you want it.

And being obligated to provide "pedigree" information after the sale? No. Ask all questions you want to ask before the deal is done.

I couldn't deal with all that. I'm glad my Deluxe Marti Report pedigreed Eddie Bauer 2-door Explorer is enough for me. 🤣

 
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A 30 year car buddy of mine has a very unique and valuable classic car that he inherited (fully original and unrestored, and documented
to the hilt....sitting covered since the early 1960's). This is typically the kind of car the Big Players spend $500K on a restoration and go out and win trophies with. He's being told by multiple "connected" sources that his car will be unsaleable to the high end portion of the car market if he dares to place it for sale on EBay Motors, Major Auctions like BJ or R&M, or anywhere else. He was told all the big guys only buy their cars in secret, behind the scenes. They will never buy such a car once it has been openly exposed for sale or auction.

What makes this even more interesting is that one of the well known agents/researchers in this market has been trying to work up a deal with him on the car. They DO have a price they can work with. However, the potential buyer has mentioned there are a number of documents he will be providing that will need signatures from the buyer. The docs would include non-disclosure agreement, some sort of research and pedigree assistance from buyer....even into the future after the car is handed over, and other requirements.....some yet to be named. Despite numerous requests by the buyer to see these documents the seller just ignores him and keeps pushing for a verbal agreement. I'm thinking this potentially opens up my friend to litigation down the road (and $$ claw backs) if for some reason he fails to meet some term in the document....disclosed, undisclosed, vague, etc.). Whatever happened to the bill of sale stating "purchased as is" and handing over a good title/registration to prove ownership? I can't mention the car or any specifics because it might violate the potential buyer's terms that the car remain unknown to general hobby until purchased by them. Still, the car is listed in a major Registry since the 1960's....so it's not totally unknown to the hobby.

Anywhere have a handle on what goes on at this level between the Billionaire Buyers and potential agents/brokers/advisors/authenticators ?
Sounds like possibly a 1930s era Cord automobile.... there are some amazing autos that were made (mostly celebrity owned) in the 30s and 40s.
 
If it's that awesome and valuable, I'd definitely put it on Bring A Trailer. Screw those "I'll only buy it if nobody else knows about it" people. No way. Maybe I don't understand rich people stuff, but base model 1980 F-Series and K10s with 4WD have sold for nearly* six figures on BAT. I'd tell them get out of here with that secret club BS and give me the most money if you want it.

And being obligated to provide "pedigree" information after the sale? No. Ask all questions you want to ask before the deal is done.

I couldn't deal with all that. I'm glad my Deluxe Marti Report pedigreed Eddie Bauer 2-door Explorer is enough for me. 🤣


The BaT "younger" crowd seems to be more in tune with 80's and later cars.....maybe even back into the muscle car period of the 70's and later 60's.....especially "sleeper" or under-appreciated cars that at one time were very popular as daily drivers.....or so "unpopular" that very few survived the 80's and 90's. But I didn't think they had a strong following for cars from the 20's to 40's. My friend is well aware of the crazy prices BaT can bring at times because he sends the listings to me all the time. If there was any reasonable chance that would work on his car he'd probably jump on it. And it seems like BaT is now more a site for well done restorations, or low mileage and nicely driving originals.....maybe not so good for cars that might have to be dragged or winched on to a flat bed. My friend would be meticulous in his detail and presentation and I'd bet he would be bumping heads continually with the BaT Admins on the description and features of the car....of which they will be pretty clueless. At the same time, I wouldn't rule it out.

https://www.hagerty.com/media/buyin...l-your-car-absolutely-but-pack-your-patience/

Yes, this car is definitely one of the high end classics of the golden era of car-making. But also an era that is waning since to many of its collectors are now in their 60's to 80's.
 
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/325383360515

The Reveal. Car is now up for auction on EBay motors. A deal was almost reached with the earlier players but fell through on some details. I think they just didn't want to spend the money in the current economic environment. One of the few of these in existence that's definitely a factory made '34 Packard Coupe Roadster 12.....no chassis swap or other major alterations taking a V8 to a V12. Bullet-proof owner and DMV documents going back to the early 1950's.

The contract in dispute was really not that much of an issue. The terms were mostly reasonable. I'd like to see the car go to a true enthusiast who would just want to get it running and safe again.......leave the concours $500K resto's to the other guys. I guess we'll see if all the Billionaires will stay away from this one now that it has been 'exposed' to the world. Would rather see a "poor" millionaire end up with it......lol.

The other Packard in this "collection" was a 1939 Packard 12 Touring Cabriolet made by Brunn....one of very few reference originals in existence. It sold 1-2 yrs ago.



Packard Dave's car 2.jpg

Packard Dave's car 3.jpg
 
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That in and of itself is a red flag for a scam.
My thought exactly. Something sticks in my mind: maybe the ultimate buyer is shady, a criminal, etc., meaning someone none of us would want to deal with. And financial stuff such aschecks for payment, even cashier's checks, can be forged and actually worthless. Any foreign transactions along these lines have to be regarded as suspect, by the way.

My sense is the friend is being primed for a ripoff. There's no other reason for the secrecy and games. NO OTHER REASON.

Edit to add: wrote this before seeing the post just above. Still don't understand the secrecy.
 
Nice, to me as long as it goes to someone that can preserve this piece of automotive history, instead of slowly rotting away in a garage, I don’t care how it ends up there.

Billionaires may have their “ways” of dealing with us plebs, but I feel if they truly wanted this vehicle, they would’ve closed the deal long ago.

Having said that, given the current economic outlook, I’m not sure it was a good decision to make it available. But who knows?
 
Already 1 bid at $65k. The car doesn't look like it's in a bad shape even though it looks like a mess.
 
Already 1 bid at $65k. The car doesn't look like it's in a bad shape even though it looks like a mess.
A complete car is a great point from which to start a restoration.

An original, documented V-12 roadster will bring a pretty penny when it’s restored.

It’s the kind of car with a positive ROI on restoration. Restoration is a six figure proposition.

A plain four door sedan of similar vintage will usually have a negative ROI in a restoration.
 
Already 1 bid at $65k. The car doesn't look like it's in a bad shape even though it looks like a mess.

If you look at the early 1950's photo with the owners standing next to the car (EBay listing) it looks "pretty worn" there too. This car was on the way to the junkyard when a $100 offer saved it from that fate.

As far as the original deal that was on the table the whole intent on the potential buyer's part was to keep the car mostly unknown and fresh to the market place. And THEY wanted to receive full credit and recognition for finding and "documenting" the car and anything else they could benefit financially from.

I don't think they were figuring on fully restoring it......just getting it back fully functional and safe again while they did a deep dive into everything about the car....ideally tracing it back from the early 50's to the original owner. I think the potential buyer/dealer wanted this a personal, "one-off" historical toy. But at any time could bail out on the project and present an offer to a billionaire to take on a full restoration. The one point they claimed for busting the deal was that the engine couldn't be turned by hand using zero leverage. Then again, my friend never assumed anything about whether the engine was seized or not.....just figured it was. I wouldn't think it's possible for an average person to put their hands only on a pulley of any large engine and crank it....esp. one that wasn't run in over 60 yrs. Fwiw, the engine was also "seized" on the 1939 Packard Brunn my friend sold. But that new owner with sufficient soaking, leverage and patience using their well-equipped personal garage, had the engine turning within 1-2 weeks.

My friend sent me a listing of his car now posted on "Barn Finds".....where many of the minions are cutting the car to pieces, esp. with regards to the condition and value of it. This is very possibly the last reference original still standing out there. It's not like you can just go out and buy one when you want....especially a "real" one....not a pieced together one.
 
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There's quite a wide range for the cars sold in the last 10 years. Not sure what the outlier at $4.1m was, maybe a famous owner?

 
There's quite a wide range for the cars sold in the last 10 years. Not sure what the outlier at $4.1m was, maybe a famous owner?


This $4.1 MILL car was one of 3 surviving of the type. A Dietrich Individual Custom Convertible Victoria mounted on the grandest 1934 Eleventh Series 1108 Twelve chassis, all considered to be among the ultimate examples of their type. All have been held within private collections, not often emerging for sale. Though even this car only has history going back to 1948....and I have no idea if that's word of mouth or actual paperwork.

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/...stom-convertible-victoria-by-dietrich/1211249

I think the "poorly documented" ones might only be in the $300K-$500K range. And the "proven" cars in the $600K to $1.4+ MILL range. Trophies and national awards don't add up to provenance or documentation. Those only validate that a car that looks nice for what is or is supposed to be.
 
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No to be a Debbie-Downer, but what's so special about that car that it's so valuable? I mean it's cool, but kind of "meh" to me. I guess everyone just has their own style and taste.
 
This is not really my sort of car, but is would bet that was a very expensive engine swap... from a current value stand point.
 
No to be a Debbie-Downer, but what's so special about that car that it's so valuable? I mean it's cool, but kind of "meh" to me. I guess everyone just has their own style and taste.
Imagine a Bugatti Veyron being discussed in the year 2080.

Kids then will say, “I mean, it‘s kind of cool, but kind of “meh“ to me. So, where’s the battery?”

You’ll try and explain how outrageous it was. How fast. How expensive. How everyone knew what it was by just looking at it. How celebrities wanted to be seen in one. How people admired them.

The Packard 12 cost about 10 times as much as a regular car. Compare a $5,000 Packard to a $600 Model A. Custom coach builders would put any body work on the owner liked, for an additional several thousand, or several times cost of a regular sedan. It had 150 HP when regular cars got by with 30, perhaps 60 in the Model A V-8, Ford’s Apex performance car.

The Packard 12 was track tested at over 100 MPH for 24 straight hours...in a time when regular cars could barely make 60.

It was the Veyron of its day.

The styling is timeless. Elegant.

Just ask Jay Leno about his 1932 Packard 12.
 
I would think that a transaction of at levels such as this, the appropriate legal representation would be handling most of these issues. On BOTH parties parts. Tread lightly and hire the best attorney you can.
 
Imagine a Bugatti Veyron being discussed in the year 2080.

Kids then will say, “I mean, it‘s kind of cool, but kind of “meh“ to me. So, where’s the battery?”

You’ll try and explain how outrageous it was. How fast. How expensive. How everyone knew what it was by just looking at it. How celebrities wanted to be seen in one. How people admired them.

The Packard 12 cost about 10 times as much as a regular car. Compare a $5,000 Packard to a $600 Model A. Custom coach builders would put any body work on the owner liked, for an additional several thousand, or several times cost of a regular sedan. It had 150 HP when regular cars got by with 30, perhaps 60 in the Model A V-8, Ford’s Apex performance car.

The Packard 12 was track tested at over 100 MPH for 24 straight hours...in a time when regular cars could barely make 60.

It was the Veyron of its day.

The styling is timeless. Elegant.

Just ask Jay Leno about his 1932 Packard 12.
Its kinda like trying to explain to your teen kids why you want a Ferrari 308 GTSI, as it is a massive POS by today's standards and slow as smoke off owl poop...but it is what Magnum PI had when you were a kid watching the one of 3 channels you got on the tube console RCA TV.
 
Imagine a Bugatti Veyron being discussed in the year 2080.

Kids then will say, “I mean, it‘s kind of cool, but kind of “meh“ to me. So, where’s the battery?”

You’ll try and explain how outrageous it was. How fast. How expensive. How everyone knew what it was by just looking at it. How celebrities wanted to be seen in one. How people admired them.

The Packard 12 cost about 10 times as much as a regular car. Compare a $5,000 Packard to a $600 Model A. Custom coach builders would put any body work on the owner liked, for an additional several thousand, or several times cost of a regular sedan. It had 150 HP when regular cars got by with 30, perhaps 60 in the Model A V-8, Ford’s Apex performance car.

The Packard 12 was track tested at over 100 MPH for 24 straight hours...in a time when regular cars could barely make 60.

It was the Veyron of its day.

The styling is timeless. Elegant.

Just ask Jay Leno about his 1932 Packard 12.
Ah ok, thank you for the education.

I don't like Bugatti so I guess I'm definitely really weird :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
 
This is not really my sort of car, but is would bet that was a very expensive engine swap... from a current value stand point.

Maybe true. But we don't know the status of that engine back in 1953. Was the block cracked or some other major issue?
And at a total cost of $100 for the car, original blocks were not an issue to many people back then. And even today, the top
cars often use replacement blocks and re-stamp them. The original engine in good running condition could probably add 10-20% to
the car's value. Just the radio alone from this car (this version made only in '34) can sell for $10,000. Another way to judge the value of
the car would be the sum of the valuable parts, esp. those only used in 1934. From what I've been told 1934 is THE best year for the CR 12.

The beauty of this example is both the rarity of the '34 CR 12 body style 1107 and it's original condition. They only made around 50 cars as I recall. At most half are still in existence. And maybe only a fraction of them possess ALL their original body panels and frame along with the documentation to prove they actually came that way. VERY FEW of the surviving examples still have a factory cowl plate, one of the few ways to "prove" a car is legit. My friend makes a point about so many "rare" classic cars showing up after the 60's and 70's as "real" cars. Many were just put together from pieces of other vehicles, given a high level restoration, then sent out to win national trophies and awarded 995+ out of 1000 points. That's their "documentation.....a long line of trophies and important owners."

It's very refreshing to see such a rare car, never butchered, and kept in the same family for 70 years. It would be like finding a fresh and unmolested '70/71 Hemi Cuda Convertible that sat complete and untouched since the late 1970's....basically forgotten by the hobby. It would gather a lot of attention.
 
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Maybe true. But we don't know the status of that engine back in 1953. Was the block cracked or some other major issue?
And at a total cost of $100 for the car, original blocks were not an issue to many people back then. And even today, the top
cars often use replacement blocks and re-stamp them. The original engine in good running condition could probably add 10-20% to
the car's value.
They’re only original once…
 
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